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wo 392/21

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#1 ADM199

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 11:46 AM

Over many years I have used both the Published and Unpublished List of WW11 Prisoners of War. Just occasionally but not in great depth until recently.

The POW Lists on Ancestry are those Compiled in April 1945. The information in them came from German and Red Cross sources. These lists are the ones previously Published.
By the time of Compilation they were very much out of date regarding Camp location given due to the Westward migration of many Camps in the Winter of 44 - 45. Several thousand Camp locations are not as given.

Camps given for other Ranks were for the most part only where they were Registered; not located, as most were set to work and mostly supervised by N.C.O. P.O.W. Some work details were many miles from the Camp of registration.
Last year a member posted a photo of a member of the R.A.A.F. posing with Douglas Bader at Colditz. In both the 1944 - 1945 lists in WO 392 the man was listed as being in St.Luft V1. Obviously something was not as stated,so a copy of the mans Liberation Report was found. He was in Colditz with Bader and had never been in Luft V1.
The lists are far from 100% accurate. All this is confirmed in the many such reports read.



Now we come to WO 392/21:- I like Steve thought this was P.O.W. Locations as of August 1943 but in the last 18 months I have found them not to be anything near to that.
Camp details are totally out of date and in many cases the prisoner had only been in the camp a matter of days and had moved on as many as four more times before the Armistace. They were compared with statements made by 4100 Escapers into Switzerland I have. Less than 3% were in the Camp Given.

About three weeks ago I studied the file in great depth and found the following :- Over 240 are given a Libyan Camp as location. Many others are given no location at all.

The most surprising find was the names of 608 P.O.W. who had died on the S.S.Scillin on 14/11/1942. Amongst these was my Father, with the wrong initials but correct Service No.
At the same time the casualty list for the Nino Bixio(17/8/1942) was checked against the file. Ninety one were found listed of which Fifteen were buried in Greece.
66808 Pte E F Chell 21st Btn. 2 N.Z.E.F.
33695 Pte I G Pavicic 24th Btn. 2 N.Z.E.F.
19635 Pte D Peterson 26th Btn. 2 N.Z.E.F.
46191 Pte O T Rowe 25th Btn. 2 N.Z.E.F.
4346264 Pte W Martin 5th Btn. East Yorks. Rgt.
4618109 Pte M S Mills 5th Btn. East Yorks. Rgt.
4466532 Pte P Morgan 8th Btn. D.L.I.
7904051 Tpr W F Mottram 4th Btn. R.T.R.
7366678 Pte J C Muir R.A.M.C.
4346342 Pte J Murray 5th Btn. East Yorks. Rgt.
4461386 Pte R W Peel 8th Btn. D.L.I.
941950 Gnr J J Prosser 11th Rgt. R.H.A.
7894001 Sgt.J E Riley 50th Btn. R.T.R.
7933092 Tpr W Sherratt 50th Btn. R.T.R.
7917570 Tpr N J Thompson 50th Btn R.T.R. listed as being in Camp 82.
Others had no Camp location given.

No doubt more "Ghosts" could be found to add to the 699 Listed.

The file gives the impression of having been compiled from lists of prisoners taken between 1941 and 1943 that were given by the Italians.
Those confirmed as dead have been deleted.
The Information in the File is just seriously misleading in many places except for Service Nos which seemed to be 100%

Hope this Post helps those with little or no knowledge of P.O.W. in WW11
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#2 dbf

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 12:04 PM

Brian
Thank you for taking the time to explain so succinctly the pitfalls of these lists. I am sure that this will lead to a greater understanding of how to treat the information given.
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#3 ADM199

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 12:14 PM

Lets Hope so Diane.
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#4 bamboo43

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:09 PM

Hi Brian,

I think that POW records for WW2 are about to go through a hiatus, what with the new WO361 series finds, especially in relation to the POW's of the Japanese.

I think WO392/21 can only be used as an initial resource for service details and confirming POW status at some point in Italy. But as I have found it is still valuable to families as a starting position.

Trouble for me know is there are about 20 new file references for me to investigate in regard to Rangoon and it's inmates within the WO361's.:rolleyes:

Just when I thought I had finally tied it all down. Fool that I am.:)
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#5 dbf

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:20 PM

Brian, what are the resources available for those trying to find out more information about POWs - and which are the most reliable in your opinion - or the most helpful.

I remember it was you who mentioned to me about the IRC - and about the fact that there are reports filed at Kew about Camps on top of the info kept on individuals in their own archives. In your opinion would these latter still be worth applying for if there happens to be a 'decent' Liberation report at Kew?
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#6 ADM199

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:46 PM

As I said Steve the file cannot even be trusted as a guide to POW in Italy. Many never got to Italy as I hope is shown in my post, and the only thing about the file that is consistant is Service Nos.
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#7 ADM199

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:55 PM

The most helpful files regarding a POW are the Liberation Reports, it is these that show file mistakes that are in WO 392. Sadly not all former POW made one. From what I know from experience is that those who were in the R.A.F. are more likely to have made a report.
Red Cross reports are another help in understanding life as a POW. Some work camps were visited a few times and the nature of the work is given.

The WO 361 Files that I have hold information of very varied quality. I feel that some do not contain the complete information that was(is) available.



Brian, what are the resources available for those trying to find out more information about POWs - and which are the most reliable in your opinion - or the most helpful.

I remember it was you who mentioned to me about the IRC - and about the fact that there are reports filed at Kew about Camps on top of the info kept on individuals in their own archives. In your opinion would these latter still be worth applying for if there happens to be a 'decent' Liberation report at Kew?


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#8 Son of POW-Escaper

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 05:12 PM

Hi folks,

My father's MI9 post-war debrief is found in AIR 2/9125. But his story may not be typical.

Marc
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Marc H. Stevens

Author of 'Escape, Evasion and Revenge: The True Story of a German-Jewish RAF Pilot Who Bombed Berlin and Became a POW'. Proud son of the subject of my book, one of only 69 members of the RAF to be awarded the Military Cross in WW2. For more info, visit www.marchstevens.com

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-97)

#9 ADM199

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 05:59 PM

There are several sources for information given by ex POW .

The main group are in WO 344. The Escaper and Evader reports are in WO 208. I have copies of all that were made. There are more reports made by former POW in the WO 208 Files than the readers guides indicate.

The R.A.F. in many cases have duplicates to those in WO 208. Sometimes with annotations.
Then you get to WO 309 - WO 310 - WO311 and other War Crimes files that hold information given by former POW.

The sources for such information are many, but you have to look for them. Award Citations are the ones you refer to Marc, but there are also publications such as "For Distinguished Conduct in the Field" which contains sections of Five Escapers reports that are still closed at Kew. Bizarre as it may seem a request for the information to be put back in the Reports under the F.O.I.A. was refused.



Hi folks,

My father's MI9 post-war debrief is found in AIR 2/9125. But his story may not be typical.

Marc


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#10 Son of POW-Escaper

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:18 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Brian.

I wonder what in the world would cause them to keep these files secret after so long?

Actually, when I asked them in 2006 why my father's Home Office file would be kept closed until 2051 (!), they said something to the effect that the file likely contained material that could be considered harmful to his family. I told them that I WAS his family, I had a pretty good idea what was in the file, and I wanted to see the file. They replied that the only way to have the file opened early was by way of an application under the Freedom of Information Act. I applied, and was successful within about 2 months.

But mine is a different story, as the file was about a single man (as opposed to a group of men), and I was his direct heir.

Thanks,

Marc
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Marc H. Stevens

Author of 'Escape, Evasion and Revenge: The True Story of a German-Jewish RAF Pilot Who Bombed Berlin and Became a POW'. Proud son of the subject of my book, one of only 69 members of the RAF to be awarded the Military Cross in WW2. For more info, visit www.marchstevens.com

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-97)

#11 ADM199

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 07:33 AM

What I was told Marc was that all the Escapers made unproven allegations against third parties.

As both men were very senior N.C.Os in 1941 it was most probable that they were no longer with us.
There was no reply when I quoted from "For Distinguished Conduct in the Field" and named the two men as R.S.M Davidson of the 8th D.L.I. and R.S.M. Letts.

As the book was originally published in Canada perhaps there are duplicates of all Escapers in that Country.
It could also be that the accused or their Family objected on the grounds that they were never charged with collaboration as accused.

Escapers Reports hold many such allegations.
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#12 Son of POW-Escaper

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 12:23 PM

Very interesting, Brian.

Thanks for the illumination.

Marc
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Marc H. Stevens

Author of 'Escape, Evasion and Revenge: The True Story of a German-Jewish RAF Pilot Who Bombed Berlin and Became a POW'. Proud son of the subject of my book, one of only 69 members of the RAF to be awarded the Military Cross in WW2. For more info, visit www.marchstevens.com

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-97)

#13 PsyWar.Org

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:37 AM

Brian, thanks for posting this important information.

Although compiled lists like this one are bound to contain errors and inaccuracies, it is shocking to see how way off the mark this particular record group can be. You're to be commended for your dogged research of POW records over many years.

It can be a natural tendency to accept the primary written records as the ultimate arbiter of 'truth'. However, the written archives can often be just as inaccurate, incomplete or biased as other sources. They have to be taken as one piece of the jigsaw rather than the complete picture.


Lee
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#14 ADM199

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:53 PM

So true Lee.

These as with other series of documents at Kew can be taken too literally, which doesn't help.

Only discovered with experience.

Brian
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#15 Skepskop

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 10:55 AM

Hi All,

I am trying to trace details of my grandfather Donald Morgan, he was captured in North Africa by Rommels forces and spent time in a POW camp, does anyone have any idea how I would go about tracing information here? Thanks
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#16 52nd Airborne

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 03:29 PM

Hi All,

I am trying to trace details of my grandfather Donald Morgan, he was captured in North Africa by Rommels forces and spent time in a POW camp, does anyone have any idea how I would go about tracing information here? Thanks


There are 2 Morgan's listed in the South African section of "Prisoners of War, Armies & Other Land Forces of the British Empire 1939-1945" book. Do you know your grandfathers full name?
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52nd Airborne.

Remembering the fallen from the 5th Hampshire Regiment, The Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and 1RGJ.

#17 Jonmc999

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 08:40 PM

Hello, I have been given this thread to see if i could get some help or advice on where to find information regarding my Grandad, He was a POW in StalagXVIIIA he was fighting in Greece in 1941. He sadly passed away in 2011 so I have the following information from his POW ID Card

Kriegsgefangenen


AUSWEIS


Kgf._ Mannsch. Stammlager


XV111 A

Wolfsberg in Karten



Overleaf.

Nationalitat : British.

Vor - und Zuname : McHALE. John

Geburtsjahr: 3 8 -19

Erkennungs - Nr XV111 A 3161

Arbeitskommando Nr. A - KSF LAGER
In

Einsatz - Ort :
WOLFSBERG
Kreis :

Unterschrift des Kgf : U / FFL

I`m not sure if i have posted this in the correct place as i`m looking for any information regarding his time in Stalag.

Thank you for what ever information you can provide.
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#18 papiermache

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 05:27 PM

The following is a transcript of a letter and report about POW records in Germany in April 1945. The original is on one of the files mentioned: my notes do not make it clear which one. I am amused to note that there were some very desireable London addresses occupied by military folk.

WO311/5 or WO311/8 or WO311/17

SLOANE 3477 Ext 728

20 Eaton Square, London, S.W.1

30th May, 1945

BM.3915 A.G.3 (VW)

Treasury Solicitor's Office
( Sir T. Burgess)
Storey's Gate,
St.James's Park,
S.W.1

J.A.G's Office,
6 Spring Gardens,
Cockspur Street,
S.W.1

P.W. Records Captured in Germany

I have been asked by P.W.2 to forward for your information the attached copy of a memorandum and report on the position regarding capture of certain records of PW at SAALFIELD, MEININGEN and TORGAU ( Ref. No. BM. 3879 ( P.W.2)).

We are informed that the present position is that records at TORGAU which included the Gestapo records are reported to have been destroyed, those at SAALFELD dealing with British personnel have been transferred by the Americans to MEININGEN. All the records relating to the British will probably be lifted from MEININGEN and brought back to U.K. in the near future, depending on the decision of Cas. P.W.

(sgd) M? D? Irham

A.A.G.




War Office File No: B.M.3879 (P.W.2) SECRET

DIRECTORATE OF PRISONERS OF WAR
CAPTURE OF GERMAN PRISONERS OF WAR RECORDS

1. During the course of recent operations the establishment containing all the records and effects ( including pay documents ) of Allied prisoners of war captured by the Germans has fallen into Allied hands as well as the complete casualty records of the German Armed Forces. A preliminary inspection has been made by Major E.T.XPerry ( Cas. PW) whose report is attached at Appendix A. It appears that the German Prisoner of War Information Bureau was located as follows:-

SAALFIELD )( captures, inter-camp transfers, etc., )

MEININGEN )( deaths, effects, correspondence section)

TORGAU ) ( Pay and employment records, records of prisoners of war in Gestapo hands.) This place is in Russian occupation and no inspection has yet been possible.

2. The staffs at Saalfield and Meiningen were also captured and, under Allied supervision, are at the latter place continuing with their work which is greatly in arrears. At Appendix B is a Schedule of Work, prepared by Major Perry, to be continued on an urgent basis. This schedule is in operation.

3. The U.S. Military Authorities have already sent a party to deal with the records and it is clear that arrangements must be made as soon as possible to despatch a British party for the same purpose. It is believed that the records and effects in question cover prisoners of war of all our Allies and possibly civilian internees as well. A comprehensive register of the graves of Allied soldiers is also included. The Prisoner of War and Refugees Department of the Foreign Office will therefore be interested as well as Dominion Military Authorities, the India Office, and representatives of Allied Governments. It is understood that the complete casualty records and effects of the German armed forces ( including Italians and other nationals) and a register of graves are also held by this Establishment. The maintenance of these records will be a matter of concern to the Allied Control Commission.

4. It should be pointed out that Torgau, Saalfield and Meiningen are all in the Russian Zone of Occupation on German surrender. Experience shows that, though neither is easy, it is less difficult to maintain a British establishment already in possession than to persuade Soviet Authorities to admit one afterwards. This is a further argument in favour of sending a party out quickly. The records at Torgau will be of particular interest since, if anywhere, the records of those captured while on special employment will be there. As already
pointed out, Torgau is now in Soviet hands.

5. It is suggested that the primary aims should be:-

(a) As regards the Records of the German Armed Forces. To maintain the existing organisation and keep it running up to date.

(B) As regards Records of Allied Prisoners of War. To ensure that the existing German staffs complete their arrears and hand over all the records in good order and facilitate currently all necessary reference and research.

6. It is proposed to call a meeting at Curzon Street House, Room 103, at 3.0 p.m. on Friday 4th May to concert the best and speediest arrangements for despatching the necessary personnel to safeguard British interests in connection with these records. At Appendix C is a provisional draft War Establishment for which, as it may be agreed at the meeting, approval should, it is suggested, be promptly sought from the War Establishment Committee. Appointments and postings can then be made at once and the party sent to Germany.

You are requested to attend or be represented.

/Distribution

Admiralty (Mr.W.N.Hanna)
Air Ministry ( Group Captain R.Burges)
Ministry of War Transport ( Mr.F.B.Vigor)
Foreign Office ( Mr.W.St.C.H.Roberts)
Canada House ( Mr.A.Bell)
Australia House( Major J.L.Lenehan)
New Zealand Govt. Offices ( Major H. Sinclair-Thomson)
South Africa House ( Mr .C.H.Taljaard)
India Office (Mr.A.R.Swinnerton)
Control Commission ( Lt.Col. De Pass and Lt.Col. Skinner)
S.H.A.E.F.
A.U.S.
D. of C.
D.F. (B)
D.F. (d)
D.D.S.D. ©
A.G.13
D.D.M.I. (P/W)
D.D.M.I. (I)
A.G.3 (V.W.)
F.4 (P/W)
Cas. (PW)
Effects

APPENDIX A

REPORT ON VISIT TO GERMAN PRISONERS OF WAR INFORMATION BUREAU

Records are located at Torgau, Saalfeld and Meiningen.

TORGAU ( not visited) appears to be the chief administration centre, controlling the labour organisation ( slave as well as prisoner of war labour) and is stated to have records of prisoners employed at work detachments, etc. The source of this information believes that pay records are also held there and that there are some records relating to prisoners of the Gestapo. It is from Torgau that telegrams are sent to the I.R.C.C.

SAAFELD was visited on 25th April for an hour or so. This is the main records office for all casualties (enemy and allied) housing Departments I, II, III and VII and administering Departments IV, V, VI, and VIII which are located at Meiningen for reason of lack of accommodation at Saalfeld. These Departments at Saalfeld which employ some 900 staff are apparently intact; they mostly deal with German etc. casualty reports. Copies of the telegrams despatched from Torgau to the I.R.C.C. are sent here, converted into lists and forwarded to Meiningen. Much information from camps, hospitals, etc. is wrongly received here and about 6 weeks' accumulation is awaiting processing and forwarding to Meiningen. The effects of deceased prisoners of war and battle casualties are sent to Saalfeld where they are classified, recorded and transferred to Meiningen. The amount of Allied material in hand could not be ascertained but there appears to be several full sacks.

The caualty records of the German armed forces are maintained here: no close examination of arrangements was made.

MEININGEN houses four Departments.

IV Registration of Graves: records in card index form are maintained alphabetically by nationalities including German and also by countries and areas in which the graves are located. These records appear to be well kept and in good useable order.

V Effects and wills: These are received from camps and hospitals and are eventually sent to Geneva. Only a few British wills ( i.e. paybooks) are in hand. The Head of the Department stated that no effects had been despatched since October 1944 and he estimated that between 5,000 and 6,000 British cases were awaiting action. The Effects Department has been entered by troops and the effects packages, enemy and Allied, broken up and scattered to a considerable extent. An enormous amount of sorting will be necessary to retrieve articles of sentimental value though few of intrinsic worth are likely to be found.

VI Death certificates: The procedure for the completion of death certificates is controlled here and records maintained.

VIII Prisoner of war and death lists and records: This Department maintains a card index of all prisoners of war and records of Allied dead. Totenlists and camp lists are despatched from here to the Protecting Power, I.R.C.C., etc. The prisoner of war index cards contain all camp, hospital etc. moves, but not employment at work detachments. In the dead index all information-the prisoner of war card, hospital card, the personal card, which is normally kept at the prisoner's camp, death report and certificate - are brought together in one dossier. The records in this Department are kept alphabetically by nationalties and appear to be well cared for.

General Remarks

The impression gained by inspection and interrogation is that the German authorities at Meiningen have endeavoured faithfully to carry out their obligations and are anxious to complete them. During recent months internal mail and transport difficulties have considerably affected the transit of information from camps etc. and much material may be lost or mislaid.

2nd May 1945
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#19 papiermache

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 09:01 AM

Appendix B ( same file references) to the above document reads as follows:


APPENDIX B

Schedule of Work

I. Work to be commenced immediately on all records relative to:

U.S.A.
British Commonwealth
Belgium
Holland
France

British Commonwealth equals: Great Britain, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, India and Colonies.
It should be noted that individuals of various nationalties ( e.g. French, Poles, Norwegians etc.) served with British Forces, particularly R.A.F. The records to include: Army, Navies, Air Forces and Merchant Seamen.

II. First priority to be given to the completion of Totenlisten and Gefallenenlisten. Copies of all Totenlisten and Gefallenenlistten prepared since 1st October 1944 to be made available for transmission to the respective countries as quickly as possible. All death certificates to be made ready for transmission as soon as Totenlisten have been completed.

III. Second priority to be given to the completion of Registration of Graves. This information to be separated for each country ( see paragraph I) and arranged alphabetically by surname. Separate records to be maintained of cases where

(a) nationality is known but name unknown.

(B) name known but nationality unknown

© nationality and name unknown.

IV. Assets and Wills. Each packet to show particulars of the individual, as follows:- Country, Name and Service number and grouped by countries. Lists to be prepared to correspond with packets in each group.

V. Prisoner of War Camp and hospital lists to be completed according to usual procedure. Information relating to prisoners captured on and after 1st October 1944 to be separated for early transmission to respective countries.
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#20 papiermache

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:19 PM

To complete the transcription of the document to be discussed at a meeting on 4th May 1945 here is Appendix C. The original was partly typed in tabular form which is beyond my word processing skills to reproduce.


APPENDIX C

Headquarters Control Unit - Enemy Prisoner of War Records

War Establishment

(I) Personnel

Lt. Colonel 1
Adjutant ( Captain) 1
Interpreter ( Capt or Sub) 1 note (a)
Casualty Officers ( Majors or Captains from Civilian Casualty Branch) 2
Supervising Clerk (W.O.1) 1
Clerks ( Sgts.) 2
Driver I.C. ( Ptes ) 2
Cooks A.C.C. (Pte) 1

Total H.Q. Staff: 11

NOTE. Mess orderlies and Batmen to be found from enemy personnel.

(a) Where Headquarters Unit is situated in area of Russian occupation an additional interpreter ( Captain or Subaltern Russian speaking) will be allowed.

(II) Transport

Trucks 15 Cwt. 4 x 2 G.S. 2
Motor Cycle Solo 1

CONTROL DETACHMENT

ENEMY PRISONER OF WAR RECORDS

WAR ESTABLISHMENT

(i) Personnel

Major ( Note (a) ) 1

Interpreter ( Capt or Sub) ( Note (B) ) 1

Clerks S/Sgt 1
Sgts 2

Driver I.C. Pte 2

Cooks A.C.C. Pte 1


Total Detachment 8

Notes

(a) When detachment is operating in area of Russian occupation, the Commanding Officer will be a Lieut-Colonel.

(B) When detachment is operating in area of Russian occupation an additional interpreter ( Capt. or Subaltern, Russian speaking ) will be allowed.

Mess orderlies and Batmen to be found from enemy personnel.
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#21 papiermache

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:42 PM

Even the greatest soldiers had trouble obtaining POW lists. This is from WO361/238, with the usual apologies and acknowledgements:


1 December 1945

To:

The War Office Casualty Branch,
Edge Lane,
Liverpool, 7.

Dear Sir,

With reference to your M/1038.R, I have been handed this letter by Captain J.N.Neale, R.A., who is one of the Officers in my Regiment.

My own details are as follows:-

33862 Lt.-Colonel P.J.D. Toosey, R.A.

and I have been in command of the 135 Field Regiment, R.A., since the 1st September 1941.

My Regiment has formed an Association in order to assist in the solving of the problem of our lost and dead members in the Far East.

I have obtained a list of casualties of which we are certain. This amounts to some 170 names. I have fairly full particulars of these 170 men. We believe, however, that our total casualties must be in the neighbourhood of 260 and we are making every effort to complete these records.

When these records are completed I propose, if possible, to write a letter to every next-of-kin as the Commanding Officer of the Regiment, which I feel to be my duty.

There are also many other problems of a domestic nature which we shall endeavour to solve for our men. We have already arranged two Reunions the week after next, which will help to collect more information and solve some problems.

If it is agreeable to you, I propose to call on you one day next week and discuss the whole matter with you, since I believe we can be mutually helpful. My telephone number is .... and I shall be at home from Monday afternoon, 3rd December, for at least ten days.

I believe that through our Regimental Association we ultimately shall be able to solve the whereabouts of the whole Regiment, which will be a step towards the difficult problem of finding the number of deaths amongst Prisoners of War in the Far East.

(...)

(sgd) PJD Toosey

Lt.-Colonel R.A.
Commanding C.M.D.G. 135 (Herts Yeomanry)
Field Regiment R.A.


Reply dated 10th December 1945.

The War Office,
Edge Lane,
Liverpool, 7

M/367 Cas.L.

Dear Colonel Toosey,

Casualties 135 Fld. Rgt. R.A.

I enclose the list of names of those under your command who are still shown as "missing" in our records. We should be so very grateful for any information you can supply regarding them. We will let you know as soon as any of the cases are disposed of - unhappily I am afraid in most, by presumption of death, so that you can then communicate with the relatives.

(...)

Thank you again very much indeed for the splendid records you have given in such desperate circumstances. They will do so much to relieve the minds of relatives - even though it be sad news - and make our work easier.

Yours sincerely,

V. Harvey


A third letter is from Lieut-Colonel A.W. Hackett, 2nd-in-Command, Royal Artillery Records (Field), Foots Gray, Sidcup, Kent to:

Mr. V. Harvey, War Office (Casualties), Edge Lane, Liverpool, 7, dated 4th Fenruary, 1946.

Dear Mr Harvey,

135 Field Regiment, R.A.

Thank you for your M/367/66A/CAS.L. of 1 Feb 46.

I am afraid with release problems at their peak, it is not possible to supply Colonel Toosey with the information he requires. As you can imagine, all Regiments have been on the same game, but in all cases we have, unfortunately, had to turn it down and they have supplied military clerks to attend at this office and get out the lists as required.

I will write to Col. Toosey today and point out to him that we will co-operate if he can supply the man or men to do the job.

(...)

Yours sincerely,

(sgd.) Ambrose W. Hackett

(ends)
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#22 greglewis

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

Could I post this here in case anyone with an interest in POW camps on Java or Japan comes looking for names?

It is the index of the places and names which appear in 'FROM JAVA TO NAGASAKI', a 1942-1945 diary of a prisoner captured on Java (Magic Rat Books)



Units

3rd Hussars, 205
6th HAA Regiment, 30, 33, 57, 218
15th Punjab Regiment, Indian Army, 209
16th AA Brigade, 204
21st LAA Regiment, 219, 220
34 (B) Squadron, 202
35th LAA Regiment, 218
48th LAA Regiment, 216, 218
77th HAA, 5, 14, 30, 33, 35, 57, 58, 64, 69, 70, 76, 77, 120, 162, 167, 186, 187, 199, 202, 203, 205, 207, 208, 210, 212, 217, 218, 220, 221, 222, 223
84 Squadron, RAF, 218
174 Field Ambulance, 223
211 Squadron, RAF, 218
Royal Corps of Signals, 218
Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, 220
Royal Engineers, 209


People and Places

Ainsley, John, 11, 203
Ambon, 212
Angel Island, 195, 225
Australia, 9, 13, 42, 47, 211
B, Dick, 48, 58
Baker, Billy, 212
Bandoeng, 42, 67, 78, 210, 214
Barry, Wales, 5, 203
Batavia, 5, 10, 11, 16, 17, 23, 29, 30, 33, 40, 64, 67, 78, 81, 82, 202, 204, 205, 212, 213
Baxter, John, 199, 201, 202, 205, 206, 208, 209, 213, 214, 215, 219, 220, 222
Benghazi, 10
Berlin, 152, 165, 173, 222, 223
‘Bijou Maru’, 223
Birch, Captain, 20, 205
Black, Bill, 11
Blakey, George, 187, 224
Blakey (PoW, unknown first name), 20
Boei Glodok, 77, 205, 213
Boei Glodok (life at), 17-23, 70-77
Borneo, 41, 209, 210
Boxall, Jimmy, 11, 203
Bradford, England, 219
Brandon, Sidney Charles, 106, 218
Brooke, Rupert, 101
Burma, 8, 84, 160, 203, 209, 212, 215, 222
Burrlock (Burrluck), Sergeant AO, 103, 218
California State Military Museum, 225
Camp 8, Kamo, 216
Camp 8, Kamo (life at), 87-190
Canada, 195, 225
Cape Town, 7, 8, 9
Cardiff, 5, 29, 36, 81, 102, 118, 125, 197, 203, 208, 209, 211, 212, 219, 222
Cardiff Arms Park, 197
Cardiff City FC, 203, 208, 209, 212
Cardiff Rugby Club, 5, 197, 203, 219
Cardigan, 207
Ceylon, 9
Changi, 209, 212, 215
China, 86, 87, 219
Chungkai, 212
Chungking, 187
Churchill, Winston, 7, 10, 111, 208, 223
Clapton, London, 219
Coconut Grove, 45, 46
Cole, Driver S, 187, 224
Colombo, 9
Convoy DM2, 5
Convoy WS14, 5, 201
Cox, Alan, 120
Cox, Pat, 11, 59, 212
Crete, 8
Crewe, 210
Curtis, Ernie, 34, 208, 212
Cycle Camp (aka Bicycle Camp), 67, 70, 71, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 82, 212, 213, 214
Cycle Camp (life at), 67-70, 77-78, 82-83
Davies, Sergeant, 84
Davies, Griff, 25, 38, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 56, 57, 60, 61, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 71, 72, 75, 76, 77, 83, 207
Derbyshire, 210
Donnington, 210
Dudley, 224
Dunn, Frank, 202
Dunn, Neville, 202
Durban, 5, 7, 8
Edwards, Hugh, 11, 132, 181, 199, 201, 203, 208, 216, 217, 220, 223
‘Empress of Australia’, 202
England, 10, 13, 20, 25, 26, 32, 36, 58, 66, 81, 106, 109, 123, 130, 142, 165, 169, 170, 179, 203, 223
Evans, Bert, 8, 23, 29, 37, 44, 45
Evans, Dai, 191
Evans, Horace, 11
Evans, Ken, 81
Exeter, 219
Far East War Crimes Tribunal, 213, 220
Fawcett, FS, 44, 211
Fleming, Bill, 195
Fobes, Hal, 165, 172, 186, 188, 222
Forge, John ‘Dusty’, 43, 44, 210
Formosa, 18, 86, 220
Fort Lewis, 195
Fort McDowell, 225
Freetown, 5
Frome, 5, 36, 125
Fryett, Frank, 9, 18, 28, 33, 35, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 56, 57, 58, 60, 61, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 70, 71, 75, 76, 77, 78, 80, 83, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 100, 105, 107, 109, 110, 120, 122, 123, 125, 126, 128, 131, 132, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 143, 148, 149, 153, 156, 163, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 174, 175, 178, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 196, 202, 220
Gardner, Les, 170
Garoet, G, 16, 205
Gaskell, Major GFG, 12, 16, 30, 81, 203
Gibson, Corporal, 99, 218
Glamorgan County Cricket Club, 197, 203
Glasgow, 161, 210, 218
Goronwy, John W, 182, 223, 224
Gosney, Ronald, 128, 220
Grandon, Dai, 11, 60, 119, 122, 128, 130, 187, 188, 189, 191, 196, 212
Grider, James A, 152, 157, 164, 165, 169, 188, 221
Guadalcanal, 208
Guernsey, 205
Hampson (PoW, unknown first name), 136
Hancock’s Breweries, 203
Hardacre, Harvey, 11, 60, 72
Haruku, 212
Hawarden, 210
Hawkins, Charlie, 18, 205
‘H’ Force, 203, 212
Higashi Misome, 211
Hitler, Adolf, 166, 223
HMS Glory, 196, 225
HMS Ramillies, 9, 201
Hoeffer, Frank, 213
Honolulu, 193, 225
Honshu Island, 211, 224
Horner, RM, 210, 215
Humphries, HR, 12, 17, 22, 27, 29, 30, 31, 40, 43, 44, 45, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 56, 57, 58, 59, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 212
Hunt, Les, 19, 35, 36, 37, 39, 41, 42, 43, 44, 211
Inatsukimachi, 87, 216, 221, 224
Jakarta, 5
Jakarta War Cemetery, 205, 207, 208
James, Billy, 209, 212
James, Noel, 19, 20, 28, 41, 42, 70, 76, 77, 83
Japan, 5, 43, 44, 55, 57, 58, 66, 77, 84, 87, 105, 119, 123, 127, 138, 144, 148, 156, 160, 172, 182, 183, 197, 210, 211, 214, 216, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225
Java, 5, 11, 16, 33, 39, 53, 83, 87, 117, 138, 141, 152, 162, 196, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 224
Jesselton, 210
Jones, Allan, 204
Jungle Journal, 15, 17, 32, 62, 204, 207
Kama, Fukuoka Prefecture, 223
Kanchanaburi hospital camp, 212
Kent, England, 219
King, Reg, 120, 220
King Victor Emmanuel III, 214
Knight, William, 32, 208
Kokura, 211
Konno, Shiggy, 197
Kuching, 210
Kyushu, 87, 216, 219, 224
Lanarkshire, 218
Lane, Colonel CM, 40, 52, 53, 209
Leicester, 218
Lewendon, Brigadier RJ, 202
Lewis, Jack, 7, 41, 141, 221
Lloyd, Herbert ‘Doc’, 24, 25, 26, 42, 50, 51, 206
Lock (unknown first name), 14
Lock, George, 11
MacMillan, Captain HMR (also McMillan), 11, 203, 224
Malang, 56
Malaya, 202, 209, 221
Manchukuo, 166, 181, 223
Manilla, 85
Manorbier, 190, 191, 224
‘Marine Shark’, 192, 225
Marriott, Ted, 207
Middlesex, 219, 220
Milligan, Jonny, 11
Missen, Sergeant LA, 110, 121, 149, 219
Mitchell, SD, 44, 211
Miyata camp, 224
Moji, 139, 211, 216, 224
Moji Number 4 camp, 211, 221
Mombasa, 8
Motoyama, 211
Mussolini, Benito, 79, 166, 214, 222
Musson, John Wilfred, 108, 218
Nagasaki, 182, 189, 190, 223
Nelson, David, 209, 212, 215
Newport, Wales, 5, 220
New York, 196, 197, 225
Nippon Times, 165, 222
North Africa, 71, 213
Norway, 8
O’Fitzpatrick, M, 11, 59
Ohama, 210, 211, 224
O’Hara, Michael, 105, 218
Okinoyama, 211
Olympia, Canada, 195
Onada, 211
Otago, New Zealand, 211
Ottawa, 196
Oversay, 5
Owens, Henry, 148, 221
Owens, Tudor, 78
Pearl Harbor, 5, 194, 220, 225
Penarth, 191
Penarth Water Polo Club, 203
Perkins, Syd, 193, 225
Perry, Harry, 150, 151, 158, 221
Philippines, 85, 86, 192
Phillips, Rev, 33, 208
Pontefract, 218
Pontypridd, 223, 224
Pritchard, Jackie, 209, 212
Probert, Johnny, 12, 44, 203, 211
‘Queen Mary’, 196, 197
Rabinovitch, Simon, 112, 219
Rangoon, 8
Reardon Smith, Alan, 25, 38, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 55, 56, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 75, 76, 79, 83, 207, 215
Reardon Smith, William, 207
Rhondda, 204, 220
Riley, Dennis, 207
Roberts, Stan, 205, 207, 215, 216, 217, 222
Roosevelt, Franklin D, 163, 222
Russia, 28, 125, 131, 139, 142, 152, 165, 222
Rutter, John, 38, 61, 65, 72, 76, 77, 79, 83, 84, 209
San Antonio Express, 225
San Franscisco, 192, 193, 194, 195, 223, 225
Seattle, 194, 195
Serang, 70, 213
Shepherd’s Bush, 225
Shikoku Island, 224
Shrine, Ron, 11
Sicily, 81, 214
Simonoseki Hospital Camp, 211
Singapore, 8, 9, 10, 39, 84, 85, 190, 202, 209, 210, 212, 215, 222, 223, 224
‘Singapore Maru’, 210, 211, 221, 224
Sitwell, HDW, 13, 204
Smead/Smeed, Joe, 105, 218
Sonei, Kenichi, 213
Southampton, 197
Southend-on-sea, 217
Southport, 212
South Wales Echo, 197, 203, 209, 212, 219
Staffordshire, 205, 208, 221
Stalin, 223
Stanton, Lionel, 112, 128, 163, 178, 182, 219
Stiles (unknown first name), 14
Stoodley, JH, 11, 203
Street, Ken, 11, 203
Street, Major, 141, 221
Street, Stan, 24, 117, 207, 220
‘Suez Maru’, 204, 209, 212
Suffolk, 222
Sumatra, 10, 11, 39, 83, 215
Sumption, Ted, 14, 67, 204
Sunda Strait, 84, 215
Surabaya, 11, 59, 69, 78, 202, 203, 204, 212, 223
Surrey, 219
Sutcliffe, Corporal, 108, 109, 219
Sydney War Cemetery, 211
Taiwan, 220, 223
‘Tamahoko Maru’, 223
Tandjong Priok, 23, 67, 68, 72, 77, 82, 104, 156, 204, 205, 207, 208, 209, 210, 212, 214, 222
Tandjong Priok (life at), 23-67
Tasikmalaya, 14, 24, 204, 207
Taylor, Ken, 19, 22, 41, 42, 58, 212
Thai-Burma Railway, 203, 209, 212, 215, 222
Thailand, 162, 212, 222
Thompson, Charles, 19, 205
Tjideng internment camp, 213
Tjilatjap, 13, 14, 56, 204
Tjimahi, 78, 214
Tjisompet, 15, 204
Toda, 1st Lt, 222
Tojo, Hideki, 121, 220
Tottenham, 218
Trealaw, South Wales, 221
Trogong, 205
Truman, President, 223
Twickenham, 20, 110, 219
Ube, 211
Upton, HC, 208
USS Chenango, 190, 224
USS Tang, 224
USS Bonefish, 204
‘Ussuri Maru’, 215, 216
V, Ken, 38, 48, 58
Vancouver, 225
Wallis, WL, 203
Wangon Cross, 204
‘Warwick Castle’, 5, 50, 201
Watson, Frank, 117, 124, 143, 151, 152, 169, 219
Weeks, Mac, 11, 43, 211
Welsford, Norman, 91, 112, 122, 123, 178, 217, 220
Wermuth, Arthur, 225
West Bromwich, 222
Williams, Emrys, 159, 160, 222, 224
Williams, Frank, 202, 205, 213
Williams, Peter, 87, 89, 91-95, 101-105, 107-111, 113- 117, 119-123, 125-126, 130-137, 139- 144, 147-158, 160-162, 165-176, 178-180, 182-192, 196, 216
Williams, Ronald, 202, 205, 213, 224
Windhurst/Windust, Sergeant, 161, 222
Winnipeg, 196
Wood, Jack, 122, 136
Wooller, Wilf, 12, 14, 17-23, 25-31, 33-53, 55-58, 60, 61, 63-68, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76, 78-86, 118, 197, 203, 215, 219
Woolley, AA, 99, 126, 217
Wright, Sergeant A, 161, 222
Yawata Steel Mill, 211
Yokohama, 44
Yokohama Cremation Memorial, 221
Yokohama War Cemetery, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222
‘Yoshida Maru’, 210, 224
Zentsugi camp, 224
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'From Java to Nagasaki: The Complete Secret Diaries of a Prisoner of the Japanese'
(Written by Les Spence, 77th HAA) In hardback. www.magicrat.co.uk
Or order on Amazon
'Farewell Leicester Square' (an SOE/resistance thriller)
Kindle book

#23 jillsteele

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:16 PM

I have come across this site and topic in the hope of finding more information on my Grandfather who was a POW in Italy and Germany from 23.1.42 to 16.4.45. I'm hoping one of you amazing knowledgable people can help me find more information on what camp he was at. His name was George H Sedgwick (think the H is for harold) and he was a gunner enlisted into Royal Artillery, Territorial Army his service number was 871287. I have his army record in front of me which just says served overseas: Middle East from 2.6.41 to 22.1.42 then POW Italy and Germany from 23.1.42. to 16.4.45. I only ever heard my grandad say " i have seen men sell out their best friend for a cigarette" :( . Would love to know more on what camps he was at so my son can know more. Also would like to know if there is a POW medal, I have his other medals of which there are 3. A 1939/45 Star, the Africa Star and War Medal 1939/45 Any help you can offer so we can pass down details for my children and remember my grandad would be very much appreciated. Thanks Jill xx


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#24 Tullybrone

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:42 PM

HI JILL,

 

MIGHT HAVE BEEN BETTER TO START A NEW THREAD RATHER THAN TAGGING ONTO THIS OLD GENERIC ONE...

 

SEE MY REPLIES IN BOLD......

 

I have come across this site and topic in the hope of finding more information on my Grandfather who was a

 

POW in Italy and Germany from 23.1.42 to 16.4.45. I'm hoping one of you amazing knowledgable people can help me find more information on what camp he was at. - POW LISTS AS AT EARLY 1945 ARE ON ANCESTRY AND OTHER SITES - ANOTHER MEMBER MAY DO A LOOK UP FOR YOU AND LET YOU KNOW WHAT CAMP YOUR GF WAS IN AT THAT TIME.

 

 

His name was George H Sedgwick (think the H is for harold) and he was a gunner enlisted into Royal Artillery, Territorial Army his service number was 871287.  HE WILL ALSO HAVE A POW NUMBER THAT YOU CAN USE TO APPLY TO THE RED CROSS IN SWITZERLAND AND REQUEST DETAILS FROM THEIR ARCHIVES. IT TAKES A YEAR BUT IS FREE. THAT OUGHT TO FILL YOU IN WITH DETAIL OF ALL HIS CAMPS. THERE IS A LINK TO THE ONLINE APPLICATION FORM ELSEWHERE ON THIS SITE. I OBTAINED MY LATE FATHERS RECORD LAST YEAR - IT INCLUDED A POW POST CARD HE SENT FROM AUSTRIA IN 1944 (PRE WAR REGULAR  CAPTURED 22ND DECEMBER 1941).

 

I have his army record in front of me which just says served overseas: Middle East from 2.6.41 to 22.1.42 then POW Italy and Germany from 23.1.42. to 16.4.45. I only ever heard my grandad say " i have seen men sell out their best friend for a cigarette" :(PRESUME IT IS THE RECORD FROM MOD IN GLASGOW YOU ARE REFERRING TO? IF NOT YOU CAN APPLY TO MOD IN GLASGOW FOR HIS FULL SERVICE PAPERS.

 

Would love to know more on what camps he was at so my son can know more.

 

Also would like to know if there is a POW medal, SORRY NO OFFICIAL POW MEDAL ISSUED BY HMG POST 1945

 

 

I have his other medals of which there are 3. A 1939/45 Star, the Africa Star and War Medal 1939/45 Any help you can offer so we can pass down details for my children and remember my grandad would be very much appreciated. Thanks Jill xx

 

HOPE ABOVE IS HELPFUL .

 

REGARDS

 

STEVE Y


Edited by Tullybrone, 24 April 2013 - 09:46 PM.

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#25 jillsteele

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:15 AM

Thanks Steve, youve given me some great starting points and they are much appreciated, sorry I posted in the wrong spot, but lucky for me you seen it. Thanks again!

HI JILL,

 

MIGHT HAVE BEEN BETTER TO START A NEW THREAD RATHER THAN TAGGING ONTO THIS OLD GENERIC ONE...

 

SEE MY REPLIES IN BOLD......

 

I have come across this site and topic in the hope of finding more information on my Grandfather who was a

 

POW in Italy and Germany from 23.1.42 to 16.4.45. I'm hoping one of you amazing knowledgable people can help me find more information on what camp he was at. - POW LISTS AS AT EARLY 1945 ARE ON ANCESTRY AND OTHER SITES - ANOTHER MEMBER MAY DO A LOOK UP FOR YOU AND LET YOU KNOW WHAT CAMP YOUR GF WAS IN AT THAT TIME.

 

 

His name was George H Sedgwick (think the H is for harold) and he was a gunner enlisted into Royal Artillery, Territorial Army his service number was 871287.  HE WILL ALSO HAVE A POW NUMBER THAT YOU CAN USE TO APPLY TO THE RED CROSS IN SWITZERLAND AND REQUEST DETAILS FROM THEIR ARCHIVES. IT TAKES A YEAR BUT IS FREE. THAT OUGHT TO FILL YOU IN WITH DETAIL OF ALL HIS CAMPS. THERE IS A LINK TO THE ONLINE APPLICATION FORM ELSEWHERE ON THIS SITE. I OBTAINED MY LATE FATHERS RECORD LAST YEAR - IT INCLUDED A POW POST CARD HE SENT FROM AUSTRIA IN 1944 (PRE WAR REGULAR  CAPTURED 22ND DECEMBER 1941).

 

I have his army record in front of me which just says served overseas: Middle East from 2.6.41 to 22.1.42 then POW Italy and Germany from 23.1.42. to 16.4.45. I only ever heard my grandad say " i have seen men sell out their best friend for a cigarette" :(PRESUME IT IS THE RECORD FROM MOD IN GLASGOW YOU ARE REFERRING TO? IF NOT YOU CAN APPLY TO MOD IN GLASGOW FOR HIS FULL SERVICE PAPERS.

 

Would love to know more on what camps he was at so my son can know more.

 

Also would like to know if there is a POW medal, SORRY NO OFFICIAL POW MEDAL ISSUED BY HMG POST 1945

 

 

I have his other medals of which there are 3. A 1939/45 Star, the Africa Star and War Medal 1939/45 Any help you can offer so we can pass down details for my children and remember my grandad would be very much appreciated. Thanks Jill xx

 

HOPE ABOVE IS HELPFUL .

 

REGARDS

 

STEVE Y


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#26 jjrc1991

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

Hi,

 

I'm in the process of researching for a book concerning the men of WWII who appear on my local war memorial. A few of those named died in POW camps. I apologise if this information has already been posted in this thread and/or on this forum but I could really do with a steer on how and where to locate any information that may be available on these men.

 

Can anyone help?

 

Regards

 

Jeff


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#27 dbf

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:36 PM

Hi,

 

I'm in the process of researching for a book concerning the men of WWII who appear on my local war memorial. A few of those named died in POW camps. I apologise if this information has already been posted in this thread and/or on this forum but I could really do with a steer on how and where to locate any information that may be available on these men.

 

Can anyone help?

 

Regards

 

Jeff

http://ww2talk.com/f...obruk/?p=579306


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The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.

#28 Lucky Gunner

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:59 AM

HI Jeff,

 

wondering if you have had further success since your August posting? May I ask whether the men that you are researching were to die in POW camps in Europe? Australians?

 

kindly,

KK. (daughter of one lucky gunner and former POW Italy)


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#29 Tricky Dicky

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:22 PM

Message for jillsteele

 

This may be late, but have only just come across this thread today, is this your relation??

 

Name: Sedgwick Rank: Gunner Army Number: 871287 Regiment: Royal Artillery POW Number: 139068 Camp Type: Stalag Camp Number: XI-B Camp Location: Fallingbostel, Lower Saxony Record Office: Royal Artillery (Heavy Anti-Aircraft) Record Office, St. Maries Hall, Dunchurch Road, Rugby Record Office Number: 43
 
Edited to add:

Edited by Tricky Dicky, 16 December 2013 - 12:25 PM.

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#30 jjrc1991

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:42 PM

HI Jeff,

 

wondering if you have had further success since your August posting? May I ask whether the men that you are researching were to die in POW camps in Europe? Australians?

 

kindly,

KK. (daughter of one lucky gunner and former POW Italy)

 

Hi KK,

 

I did have some luck since August although it came from a regimental museum and not this forum. I managed to find out about one of the men I am researching who had been taken at Tobruk and died two years later as a POW in Austria.

 

All the men being researched are English and all appear on my local war memorial (see profile picture)

 

Regards

 

Jeff


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