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Post Traumatic Stress??


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#1 Trincomalee

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:43 AM

I 'm on the committee of a charity that works with post traumatic stress (PTSD) . We have published a book that explains how it feels and what people can do about it .
The book , "THE SKY BEFORE THE STORM" , has been distributed to every GP's surgery in Northern Ireland and the feedback has been very positive .

This book is available online to download for free .

I became involved with this work because I was very aware of my father's experiences throughout his life (he had been a Japanese POW) . And now , a lot of people are looking at the "trans - generational" effects of trauma .

Interestingly , my closest friend at university was the daughter of concentration camp survivors . Years later we realised that this similar background was part of our friendship .

Would members on this forum like to have the details and the link ?
I welcome your opinions .
Linden
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#2 von Poop

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 11:05 AM

Sounds interesting.
Post away Linden.

Cheers,
Adam.
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#3 Trincomalee

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 01:40 PM

I 'm on the committee of a charity that works with post traumatic stress . We have published a book that explains how it feels and what people can do about it . The book , "Sky Before The Storm" , has been distributed to every GP's surgery in Northern Ireland and the feedback has been very positive .

This book is available online to download for free .

I became involved with this work because I was very aware of my father's experiences throughout his life (he had been a Japanese POW) . And now , a lot of people are looking at the "trans - generational" effects of trauma .

Interestingly , my closest friend at university was the daughter of concentration camp survivors . Years later we realised that this similar background was part of our friendship .

Would members like to have the details and the link on this forum ?
I welcome your opinions .
Linden


PTSD

"THE SKY BEFORE THE STORM" (pdf) WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT TRAUMA

Wider Circle Trauma Support Group - Home

There are pictures with each page so if the feelings become too intense you can rest by looking at the pictures .

There are two possible downloads .

1 One is the version used in Northern Ireland . The paintings have been especially chosen so that there are no images that could remind the reader of the Troubles .
http://widercircle.org/publications/SkyBefore_no%20images.pdf

2 The second version allows you to select your own pictures ; images that won't disturb you
http://widercircle.org/publications/Sky%20Before_with%20images.pdf
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#4 debra

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 07:53 PM

I work in nursing, and I have listened to many men and women who were involved in The War and are now outwardly talking and feeling what they saw and experienced. Two people I think of often, Olga, from Norway,..she kept repeating to me: "Why could they now stop him? Why?" A gentleman who fought on Omaha Beach who described vivid images to me of his experiences. Why I am romanticized by The War, I really can't say, but these folks are still living it in the present. Truly a paradox.
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#5 sapper

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 09:05 PM

Having seen the effects of battle exhaustion first hand, and knowing that it is caused by a prolonged period of violent battle and even harsher conditions. I wonder where todays cases come from?
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#6 Slipdigit

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 11:16 PM

Mr. Guy, it doesn't have to be prolonged, although that is what is usually associated with. It can be caused by a brief incident, such as a automobile wreck or other traumatic event.
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Warmest Regards,
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#7 Trincomalee

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:33 PM

I think it is clearer if it is described as "a shock" .
Any shock can produce the symptoms of PTSD .
"The Sky Before The Storm" suggests that this is a medical condition , not a mental problem . Shock alters the body's chemical balance and when this imbalance persists the chemicals can cause emotional changes .

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#8 sapper

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 06:37 PM

I don't mean to be rude. But many thousands of men experienced continuous battle conditions, in some of the most horrifying circumstances without succumbing to this shock.
That is why I have difficulty in coming to terms with this today. That begs the question. Are we becoming a Nation of Softies.
Best Regards to you for your work.
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#9 Cpl Rootes

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 07:02 PM

I don't mean to be rude. But many thousands of men experienced continuous battle conditions, in some of the most horrifying circumstances without succumbing to this shock.
That is why I have difficulty in coming to terms with this today. That begs the question. Are we becoming a Nation of Softies.
Best Regards to you for your work.
Sapper



Maybe more and more cases are being reported today then perhaps were when you were fighting Sapper. Did you have any direct contact with PTSD sufferers during your service?

The 'Nation of Softies' is a compelling argument, but the Falklands had loads of PTSD sufferers, many of whom had fought previously or been to NI etc
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#10 Trincomalee

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 07:43 PM

HI Sapper

I became involved with the subject because my father had it . He never received any help or treatment , but he had PTSD . In the early years of his marriage he would awake screaming with a flashback nightmare . Whilst he was dying the flashbacks returned . He had them intemittently throughout his life and on his 80th birthday , asked me if they would ever go away .
Both of my parents knew that if they had asked for medical help he would probably have been locked away , so everyone lived with it . My father didn't want the experience to define the rest of his life .

Not every war veteran has PTSD but many do .
In the UK , the first treatment for veterans was with the Royal Navy , after the Falklands War .The wives started to ask for help because the husbands and fathers who returned were unrecognisable ; often they had become loners or they were now aggressive .
In the States it was documented after the Vietnam war .

After the two world wars there wasn't any help available - the only response was to lock people away . The wives and families accepted that they just had to live with whatever behaviour happened within the family - they understood it was because of "the war" .

Most people still don't want to talk - there's a lot of shame because people feel it is a sign of weakness and mental problems . I don't think that very many people realise that it is a medical problem . I live in Northern Ireland and the medical profession started to predict that the problems would begin to manifest once the Troubles came to an end . People can hold themselves together and keep the lid on it all as long as the war is still on . Afterwards , it is more difficult to keep such a tight rein .

I know what you mean about becoming a nation of "softies" . Most people still wouldn't want to ask for help , but there is just a little less of a stigma .

I offered to put the connection to "The Sky Before the Storm" on the website because I thought it might help people identify whether they do have PTSD . My charity is often contacted by people who have read the book , to say that it explains to them what they are feeling , and knowing what it is is a great weight off their shoulders . This book doesn't help everyone , but it has helped some .

When the shocks go on for years it probably becomes impossible to remember what a "normal" body chemistry felt like . But the continuing nightmares and flashbacks are now known as PTSD .

If you have looked at the book I would really appreciate the feedback .

Regards,
Linden
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#11 debra

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 01:21 AM

I don't mean to be rude. But many thousands of men experienced continuous battle conditions, in some of the most horrifying circumstances without succumbing to this shock.
That is why I have difficulty in coming to terms with this today. That begs the question. Are we becoming a Nation of Softies.
Best Regards to you for your work.
Sapper



"Shock"..."PTSD"....I think one has the choice now to get help or to just put up with the illness. My dad never received help for PTSD even though he was a POW (WW2), neither did my uncle, who went into Arnhem........did they have it? Dunno..nobody talked about it.

The men who fought in Vietnam over here, had it, and many decided to turn to drugs and alcohol to combat the illness. How many men from WW2 did the same thing, dunno.

ED is a not-talked-about-disease. Does it exist? Yep.
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#12 Slipdigit

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 02:19 AM

Purely anecdotal, I admit, but my experiences with veterans has made me think that ones who talk about what happened, at least with family and close friends, tend to do so much better psychologically than those who say nothing.

What do y'all think or have read to this affect?
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Warmest Regards,
Jeff


#13 sapper

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 02:03 PM

I just feel we are overdoing this thingy. Its like an encouragement to be a Weakling? True battle exhaustion is quite another thing, and the results are plain to see and DREADFUL. I am not convinced that what is claimed to be shock... in some cases.. is the real thing.
Though I do applaud you kind folks who have their heart in the right place.
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#14 Steve G

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 08:37 PM

It was a bloody great big explosion, and tipped one man over the edge, he went crazy...Running around with his commando knife trying to stab his mates.



Now, That's an extremely interesting 'aside', Sapper! Dr (Lord) Moran, in his WW1 based " The Anatomy of Courage " seems to make much of the High Explosive shells of that era, and the sometime effect of having one explode 'over ones head' could have ~ despite no physical injury being sustained.

In short; It appears to have been one of the most notable, 'single' causes of blokes loosing it. Probably why they coined the phrase " Shell Shock " ? Only, in my own, extremely limited experience, I'm not sure ~ as I type from the hip ~ that this ties in so well with " PTSD ", as spoken of and recognised today :unsure:

Bugger. Now the shame is that any ensuing discussion here is liable to become lost and buried under the search term of " Mortar " ! Shame. Something I'm always interested in a discussion about; Shell Shock / PTSD.


Many thanks for the other contributions too, peeps. I'd never really given mortars that much thought before. Seems I may well have underestimated them!
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#15 sapper

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 02:55 PM

As another aside. There is train of thought amongst some veterans, that the PTSD is being used as an excuse by some people.... A harsh claim? Maybe...

But when I think of how few genuine shell shock/battle exhaustion cases we had. (2) And being almost continuously in action, and sometimes in the most appalling conditions. The Vets find it difficult to come to terms with what "appears " to be rather a large number of exhaustion cases. Where there is no comparison with what the conditions of battle, or, with the conditions that we went into Battle.

To see so many cases of PTSD when men have not seen anything like the WW2 fighting....Rather makes the Vets wonder.

What do you think friends. Am I being very harsh? or is there an element of truth in this posting? I await your verdict with a great deal of interest...
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#16 Steve G

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 08:45 PM

:unsure: Hmm. I was rather afraid this might happen. I.e; Not a great deal. Now, even if it does move, it'll be buried. What ever.

Sapper; Ever read Dr Moran's book? There's the stated findings of a qualified medic who saw what sounds like enough to form an opinion round. He was involved, in his capacity, in both WWs. I seem to recall he felt there were different factors to be taken into account in both.

I wouldn't personally know about the more 'modern' theatres of conflict. (Not that I'd " personally " ~ in that sense, ye understand? ~ Know anything about any military action. I've never been in the military). But, my point is that I haven't read anything pertaining to this subject from a more modern perspective. Near as I can get is to say that, in my own opinion, Chrissie Walkin did an admirable job of portraying " PTSD " to the mass audience of " The Deer Hunter ", within the constraints of cinematographic presentation. I can base that opinion on personal experience.

I have - and have yet to read - the book " Free Fall ". That appears to cover the subject of " PTSD " from a personal and more up to date perspective. I'm looking foreward to that one.

Then, of course, there's the small point that I actually have Chronic PTSD. That diagnosis having been upheld, for fifteen years and more, by every shrink ye governments could throw at me. And they threw the best they had, believe me ;) To a man and a woman though, they all came back with the same answer. " Write Off! ".

So, we may see that the medical profession ~ even those well and truly accustomed to warfare and what it involves ~ have constantly agreed with Dr Moran and his century since offered proposition that certain factors can conspire to drive some men 'over the edge'.

You ~ if I'm reading ye correctly? ~ appear to question, if not the existance of any such 'condition', then perhaps the validity of a good many alleged cases? Obviously, ye'll correct me if I have that wrong.

Then we have the very question of nomenclature; " Shell Shock ". " Battle Exhaustion ". " PTSD ". As touched on, above; I actually find myself wondering if these titles may not be as interchangable as some seem to think. I.e. that there may actually be quite different conditions, with equelly different causes and symptoms.

I'd venture to suggest Moran deals with " Shell Shock ". Quite literally. He seemed to recognise it as often being caused by a shell. Simple as that. And I wouldn't say that I can even particularly see my own symptoms as matching too well with those he describes as a result of this 'Shell Shock' either.

" Battle Exhaustion " ? Sounds somewhat counter to the suddenness of SS, doesn't it? Something more cumulative and pervasive? I'm not familiar with the term, or its symptoms. Can't really say much more on it. Only that it, by definition, sounds to need a bout of prolonged combat to bring it about, surely?

" PTSD "? I'd suggest that can be brought on quite as suddenly as SS. Only it needn't involve shells or, necasserily, a " shock ". And, probably in common with all three; I'd suggest that by no means all the people exposed to a given situation will respond by developement of the accepted symptoms.

But, here's the cruncher ~ for me: I often wonder how so very many men can have gone through the experiences of WW's and other such situations, yet come through them without a higher incidence of PTSD ..... Then I think of the so often heard, if whispered, tales of those they came home to; " He never spoke about it. " " He wasn't the same man any more. " " He had nightmares. " Classic symptoms of PTSD.

Finally; I get the impression that one of the most practicle defences against the onset of PTSD is to 'talk about it'. To get off ones chest what one has been through. Get it out in the open. Right out of ye system, before it has time to mutate and start tearing ye apart.

Dare I venture to suggest then that a forum such as this is probably the last place to seek veterens who recognise PTSD? Nor the various Associations and meetings of old comrades. Because the blokes who succumbed will be the ones who've never turned up. Who don't speak of their own experiences. The poor souls so often to be caught sitting silently in their armchairs, staring into middle distance .....

:poppy:



* Even just writing this post has really, Really taken it out of me. I feel like my head's in a vice now. Another symptom.
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#17 sapper

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:47 AM

Let me say right away Steve, that there is no way I would question the genuine cases...If you got that feeling? Then please accept my most sincere apologies mate. I would never hurt anyone...

Let me tell you about a very close friend. He had seen the most severe battles including what was known as "The bloodiest square mile in Normandy" He was fine until at last, on a night crossing over the Escaut canal, he succumbed, But it was a real horror...A Dante's inferno or worse.

Real Battle Exhaustion is the very worst of wounds...The man that suffers is similar to a man that has suffered a stroke. He is a different character. And of course he will be aware that under fire he could not operate. "Bless Him" we all have our breaking points. I am fortunate in being far too pig headed to succumb!
Cheers
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#18 Steve G

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:03 AM

Never once crossed my mind that you were questioning my condition, Sapper. Some of what I came out with, above, was from inside. Almost like talking to myself in terms I'd understand.

Now; Your mate on the Escaut Canal? " He succumbed. " Bingo! Absolutely perfect example of exactly what Moran takes a rather long time to drive home to us.

Taking it ye haven't read the book (And I couldn't blame ye! :lol:) The basic thrust is that men will enter battle with so much courage in their account. This they then spend as required. His notion is simply that some events may 'cost' some more. Even more than they cost others. And so it is that, one day, a bloke might need to top up and get the dreaded " Insufficient Funds ".

That's what Moran would've said of ye poor friend there. He'd paid out all he had.

What a terrible price :(
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#19 sapper

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:28 AM

It was Steve. A courageous man..But we all have that point where we succumb. Its what the creator. Who ever he is? gave us.... You cannot buck it, its "Built In"
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#20 von Poop

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:29 PM

I've moved the PTSD stuff on the Mortars thread to here.
Hope that's OK.

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#21 spider

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 02:00 PM

Interesting story here regarding PTSD and possible triggers and pre disposing conditions.

Catalyst: Blast Trauma - ABC TV Science

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#22 Steve G

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 02:20 PM

;) Cheers, Adam Good to see it all brought together ~ especially having missed the original thread.

No Way am I looking at that book though! Nice pictures or not.

Interesting point about the body chemicals though. Trouble is, that's led them to figure they can fight / right chemicals with chemicals. Up shot it that they want ye tranquillised for the rest of ye life. So ye can't win, see? Either become, and remain, someone or something other than ye were 'before the incident'. Or ye take the tablets and .....

Just to dare to return to this question of 'becoming a nation of softies' ? I'd suggest there's more than a small grain of truth in that (Incoming!!!) :peepwalla:


I'll leave it there. Because I'm now locked in a cycle of waffle, delete. Waffle, from a different angle. Delete. Think I'll go for a stroll ;)
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#23 ww2ni

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 09:55 AM

I was speaking with a guy last week who told me this story.

He had a relative who was a ww2 veteran however, as seems to be the case with many people, he was always reluctant to talk about his experiences.

After his death the family were going through his belongings and found a chest containing various documents, medals etc etc but there was also a number of police summonses and documentation regarding fines for criminal damage.

With a little bit of research the story became clearer.

The gentleman had been captured and was held for some time in an Italian P.O.W. Camp.

After the war he lived in the Sandy Row area of Belfast and each weekend he would enjoy a few drinks in a local pub however at the end of the night when walking home he would find himself passing a shop which was under Italian ownership.

When thinking of the troubles he had experienced in the Italian P.O.W. camp he usually stopped at the shop to smash a window!

It appears that this had become something of a regular occurrence and indeed his old Regiment had an Officer speaking on his behalf in court to explain his circumstances.

P.T.S.D. is nothing new!
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#24 dbf

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 11:52 AM

Sad case, he had at least the backing of his regiment if only when having to deal with the consequences.

I'm reminded of the book Hand2Hand wrote about his good friend Bill who was taken in 1940 and only spoke of his experiences much later ... what he had to endure as a POW and from his own side after liberation.
New Page 2
The Bill Balmer Story
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#25 Smudger Jnr

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:18 PM

PTS

Post Traumatic Stress has always been around and either simply ignored in earlier years or the person was called a coward or such like.

During the First World War, shell shocked soldiers were actually shot as cowards with no recourse to their previous military history, which was sometimes outstanding.

History shows how shabbily we have treated out military and civilians alike who suffered such traumas.

It is good to see that people can now seek and receive help without being stigmatised.

It was refreshing to read that the Regiment did not disown their own and represented his case.

Regards
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#26 Formerjughead

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 05:22 PM

This has been called many things over the years and will manifest in any number of ways: Shell Shock, Delayed Stress, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder etc, whatever you call it; It is more or less your brain's way of saying: "Okay, I've had enough". The key is to recognize the signs/ symptoms early and deal with them as unlike a fine wine they will not improve with time.

We owe it to ourselves, family and friends, to be able to recognize the symptoms and encourage help.

Here is some info to get started these are US links; but, I am sure there are similar services offered on your side of the pond. And NO Guinness will not fix it.
NIMH · Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
NIMH · Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (Easy-to-Read)
National Center for PTSD Home
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#27 James S

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 05:27 PM

It is unfortunately nothing new lots of men have dealt with stress as they did in civilian life - alcohol to massage away trauma , help you to sleep - in itself it makes you more depressed...being branded a "drinker" masks what goes on underneath.

Our politicians I hope that they will not forget their obligations.
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#28 Drew5233

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 07:23 AM

I think there is one or two threads on this subject on the forum already.

Ref WW2 stuff, I just typed up a Royal Signals citation that mentions it, all but very briefly, and shows that it was recognised during WW2.

I believe some members have mentioned in previous threads that it was dubious during WW2.

Signalman (LCPL) Robert Herbert Bagley MM, 201 Guards Brigade Signal Section, 8 Indian Division, The Royal Corps of Signals.

Awarded Military Medal.

On the night of 11-12 May 1944, during the Gari River crossing operation L/Cpl Bagley R. volunteered to remain alone with his wireless set at the Beach Signal Masters Post, after his second operator had to be withdrawn suffering from shell shock.

Beside operating his wireless set L/Cpl Bagley as telephone orderly, and on many occasions during the night crawled out of his slit trench to repair the telephone line himself despite constant and accurate shelling, mortaring and machine-gun fire.

By his devotion to duty and complete disregard for his personal safety, L/Cpl Bagley maintained both line and wireless comn single handed during the most critical stage of the assault.
LG 19.12.44


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#29 Formerjughead

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 10:58 PM

Discharges for adjustment disorder soar

By Kelly Kennedy - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Aug 13, 2010 18:45:32 EDT
Two years ago, under congressional pressure, the military changed its policy on separating troops dealing with combat stress for pre-existing personality disorders — an administrative discharge that left those veterans without medical care or other benefits.

Discharges for adjustment disorder soar - MarineCorpsTimes.com


Rant On:
PTSD is something which I have done a great deal of research on and it, for lack of a better term, is one of my passions.

This article and policy illustrates the ignorance of the military and mental health profession and their inability to recognize and effectively treat service members suffering from PTSD.

This is something everyone should be outraged about!

Here is a link that describes PTSD. Please take time to read it. By recognizing the subtle changes in people's behavior you can make a difference.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder DSM IV Criteria

Rant Off
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#30 OpanaPointer

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 01:35 AM

An after action report I read stated that "shell shocked" men were lacking in moral fiber. I'm thinking the officer who wrote that had never been near the heat.
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