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Jews and Communism


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#1 playeru

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 06:56 PM

Nazi propaganda portrayed the Jews as being Communist sympathizers. I realize this was just a cheep excuse for killing the Jews, but still, was there a disproportionate support among Jews for Communism? The Romanian province of Bessarabia for example had a large Jewish community. When the Soviet Union occupied the province in 1940 the Jews sided with them. When Romania recaptured the region in 1941 2/3 of the Jews fled East, a huge percent I think compared to other regions where few Jews fled. The rest were mostly killed by the Nazis but also by their Romanian allies.

Other interesting case studies would be for the Jews living in Eastern Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, but even Germany, where the Communist Party was very strong at one time.

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#2 Drew5233

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 08:00 PM

At that time I think most people would support anything if it was against the ideals of Nazism regardless of their own religion or beliefs.

Communism seemed to be a new trendy idea during WW2 that was spreading since the end of WW1 but took off as a means to fight for what Hitler stood for. It spread quite well through countries like France and Greece but obviously caused numerous problems after the war and Churchill seemed to be one of the few main players who appreciated what was going to happen regarding Communism.

So to answer your question: Depending on their geographical location in the world yes but I suspect many were using it as a tool to fight back rather than because they believed in the ideals of Communism.
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#3 Elven6

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 08:28 PM

You should take a look at this,

History of the Jews in Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lenin was largely good to the Jews from what I can gather from the article, the problem was he had trouble controlling the initiatives he set in place to help them. Given how after he came to power he had to deal with the many White Army movements in Russia I could see why he would have a full plate. I assume the needs of the party and the majority would take priority over the needs of a minority group. That doesn't mean he didn't want to help them persay, it was a difficult time for the party and Lenin when he first came to power, there were many key regions in Russia at the time under opposition control, the Bolsheviks were bein prioritized to defend what territory they had and take over those held by the White Army.

Stalin on the other hand was mixed, at times he would support Jews in the Soviet Union and other times he would hate them. At one point Stalin supported the creation of Israel and Judaism in the USSR because he thought doing so would help the state fight against the west.

Going a but further, perhaps even Karl Marx's interpretation of the Jewish Question? Keep in mind, you won't find a sure fire answer at this stage since it is a heavily debated topic as to what he actually means.
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#4 Harry Ree

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 09:39 AM

The German war propaganda machine always maintained that one of the reasons for invading Russia was to eliminate Communism.

Hitler in his utterings, put the Jews as the kernel of the ideology and Geobbels harnessed Hitler's "table talk" to further motivate the intensity of genocide,

Edited by Harry Ree, 19 July 2009 - 09:50 AM.

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#5 Ron Goldstein

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 11:32 AM

Harry

I think it also worth mentioning that Jews, invariably a minority in whatever part of the world they were living, would inevitably look for help to whatever cause that was opposed to Facism and Nazi-ism, and certainly Communism offered them that hope.

Regards

Ron
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And if not now, when?
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I was "called-up", as a 19 year old, on the 1st of Oct 1942 and was one of 5 serving brothers, one of whom, Jack, was in RAF Bomber Command and was killed on March 16th 1945.

I served as a Driver/Op (Wireless Operator) with the 49th Light Anti Aircraft Rgt. (78 Div) from Apr 1943 to Dec 1944 (North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Egypt). The Regiment was disbanded in Dec 1944 and I was retrained (in Italy) by the Royal Armoured Corps.

 

Finally, I served as Loader/Op with the 4th Queen's Own Hussars (6th Armd.,78th & 56 Div) from Mar 1945 to Dec 1946 (Italy, Austria, Germany) finishing up as Tech Cpl. for "A" Sqdrn.  I was "De-mobbed" in Apr 1947

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#6 Za Rodinu

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 06:16 PM

I don't quite remember seeing any injuction in the Torah recommending acceptance or more of atheist communism but...

Perhaps it was something else, I never did like very much that curvy nose or the strange hairdos.

Posted Image

They could be right after all.

Posted Image

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”

“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”
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#7 Elven6

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 06:35 PM

I don't quite remember seeing any injuction in the Torah recommending acceptance or more of atheist communism but...

Perhaps it was something else, I never did like very much that curvy nose or the strange hairdos.

Posted Image

They could be right after all.

Posted Image

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”

“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”


I think supporting a party especially for a group in that position would be more of a personal thing than a religious one. Hitler was much worse when it came to treating Jews than Stalin was from what I can see, so perhaps they saw a "lesser of two evils" scenario? I also don't think the Torah has any recommendation of a political system fro Jews to follow, it might make reference to issues of the time although my level of knowledge when it comes to Judaism is pretty moderate.

Edited by Elven6, 19 July 2009 - 06:56 PM.

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#8 Ron Goldstein

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 06:45 PM

Za Rodinu

I don't quite remember seeing any injuction in the Torah recommending acceptance or more of atheist communism but...

Perhaps it was something else, I never did like very much that curvy nose or the strange hairdos.

They could be right after all.




Would you like to clarify ?

Ron
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If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
And if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?
Rabbi Hillel circa 30 BCE


:peepwalla:

 

I was "called-up", as a 19 year old, on the 1st of Oct 1942 and was one of 5 serving brothers, one of whom, Jack, was in RAF Bomber Command and was killed on March 16th 1945.

I served as a Driver/Op (Wireless Operator) with the 49th Light Anti Aircraft Rgt. (78 Div) from Apr 1943 to Dec 1944 (North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Egypt). The Regiment was disbanded in Dec 1944 and I was retrained (in Italy) by the Royal Armoured Corps.

 

Finally, I served as Loader/Op with the 4th Queen's Own Hussars (6th Armd.,78th & 56 Div) from Mar 1945 to Dec 1946 (Italy, Austria, Germany) finishing up as Tech Cpl. for "A" Sqdrn.  I was "De-mobbed" in Apr 1947

http://www.blogger.c...947129038825503


#9 Za Rodinu

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 07:53 PM

Replied to by PM.
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#10 Harry Ree

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:30 PM

Harry

I think it also worth mentioning that Jews, invariably a minority in whatever part of the world they were living, would inevitably look for help to whatever cause that was opposed to Facism and Nazi-ism, and certainly Communism offered them that hope.

Regards

Ron


Ron,

Asolutely true.

However you have to look back to Hitler's early thoughts on recovering Germany's 1914 boundaries. Hitler's philosophy was developed and laid out in Mein Kampf when he recorded that fate had handed over Russia to Bolshevism which, he said, really meant handing over Russia to the Jews."The giant empire in the East" he claimed, is ripe for collapse.And the end of Jewish rule in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state.So the great steppes to the East,Hitler claimed, could be taken over easily on Russia's collapse without much cost in blood to the Germans.

Hitler clearly thought that the Jews were at the centre of of the development of communism in Russia and had a vital role in the setting up of the Soviet Union,clearly a reflection of his, to motivate further anti Zionist intensity.

Regarding the Soviet Union Jews,during the Great Patriotic War with Germany,the Jews saw themselves as Soviet citizens.However, the Soviet Union excluded any mention of the systematic genocide of the Jews in their post war recording of history in order to accomodate its post war policy.The civilian victims of the German onslaught on Russia were regarded as Soviet citizens of differing ethnic origin and not as particular national groups.The regime choose to avoid giving the Jews a special place because of increasingly anti Zionism and the difficulty of assimilating the Jewish identity in the category of Soviet citizenship.Further, this was a period of anti Zionism when large numbers of Soviet Jewish writers,doctors and academics were forced out of public life or arrested and executed on trumped up charges.

Anti Zionism again surfaced when, Soviet Jewish doctors in the aftermath of Stalin's death in March 1953 were arrested on trumped up charges that they were involved in the alleged "poisoning" of Stalin.

The history of the Holocaust has never been acknowledged by Soviet writers,even after the collapse of the Soviet Union and surprisingly more when it was the Red Army who liberated Majdanek and Auschwitz.
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#11 Drew5233

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Posted 19 July 2009 - 08:48 PM

:unsure:
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#12 Stig O'Tracy

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 01:36 PM

It's not surprising that many Jews found communism appealing especially in Russia. Russian history of antisemitism is extensive and the laws restricting Jews in Russia prior to the Revolution were profound. Jews were not allowed to live within cities and were confined to reside in a specific region. These facts are detailed in the book "War of the World" by Niall Ferguson. Communism in Russia was internationalist, ideally it wasn't suppose to recognize ethnic, religious or nationalistic differences in individuals, everyone was the same. This ideal would obviously appeal to someone who has been persecuted for generations for something as intangible as ones religious beliefs (personally, I'm agnostic). I recently read "Stalin - The Court of the Red Tsar". One part I do recall concerned one of his magnates who happened to have been born Jewish. This fellow ( I don't remember the name right now) said he felt he had to be more Soviet than anyone else because of his Jewish roots.
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