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#1 Kaiser

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:05 AM

During the war, Germany's war crimes are shown throughout the world. Yet Japan's war crimes are mainly kept secret. In fact, before the book, The Rape of Nanking, Westerners didn't know much about the Japanese war crimes. Now, I ask you, were the Japanese war crimes worse then Germany's, or better?

One thing to note is that Japan, till today, makes no note of their own war crimes, and still maintains the belief that they were the victims of WWII (nuke). Their text book teaches how they liberated Asia from Western colonialism, which, IMHO is true to an extent. One reason why so many Asian countries refuse to allow Japan UN Security Council is because of their war crimes and their refusal to admit them.
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#2 harribobs

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:09 PM

I don't think Japan's war crimes were kept 'secret' but certainly their atrocities in Nanking, and other Chinese cities wasn't as well publicised in the west as was the German final solution. Ms Chang certainly should be applauded for her work in making the crimes more well known

There are several factors involved, as well as the proximity, as much as it may not be politically correct to point it out in these times, but life was very cheap in China pre war, and death was 'a way of life', corpses in the street were common and the yangtze river was awash with bodies before the Japanese arrived. The chinese troops were well aware of what had happened in the cities before they had retaken their cities.

Were the japanese atrocities worse or better than the german atrocities?, strange question, There were 6 million killed in the halocaust in the west, estimates vary from 100,000 to 300,000 in China, so the extent of the German atrocites were greater. I certainly wouldn't like to say one was better or worse than the other. If I had lost my mother or father in either, I could probably give you an answer
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#3 Kiwiwriter

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 03:20 PM

Well, here goes my 600th post!
The Japanese war crimes were extremely serious and in many occasions, ghastly violations of most civilized codes of conduct. These included the use and testing of poison gases and bacteriological weapons. At a more mundane level, they included mass murder, gang rape, starvation and ruthless exploitation of POWs, and slave labor.

Two big differences between the Japanese atrocities and the German ones: the Japanese did not engage in a deliberate policy of genocide against specific ethnic groups. While they killed millions of Chinese, there was no plan to exterminate the Chinese people.

The second was that Japanese atrocities were often done in a poorly organized, and haphazard manner, usually at the whims of local commanders, rather than on the basis of direct orders from Tokyo (or Berlin). There was no “Kugel” or “Igel” order in the Japanese government until shortly before the war ended, at which point the Japanese planned to massacre all surviving POWs, so that their atrocities would not be discovered. The A-bombs cut that short, as the American authorities’ conditions given to the Japanese required them to turn their POWs over alive, or face serious consequences. After two atomic bombs, the Japanese did not want to find out what those would be.

The Tokyo War Crimes Trial, presided over by Australian Justice William Webb, did not get anywhere near the coverage of the Nuremberg Trials. For one thing, the Japanese war criminals were not as famous as Goering, Ribbentrop, Hess, and Streicher, except for Hideki Tojo. The latter proved to be a fairly dull personality. My book on the Tokyo trial points out that more books have been written about the troubles of Billy Martin and the New York Yankees under George Steinbrenner than the Tokyo War Crimes Trial, which sent 21 people to the rope.

The Japanese have, as you point out, never admitted their guilt or investigated their own past in the way the Germans have. There were no follow-up trials for Japanese war criminals in their own country, and no effort to address their misdeeds in scholarship or education. The Japanese tend to view World War II in terms of the horrors of atomic attacks, leaving out the years before the bombs.

I hope that helps. 600!
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#4 stage

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 08:10 PM

Another reason was that there wasn't a Simon Weizenthal for the Japanese war crimes. Weizenthal was largely responsible for bringing retrobution onto the Nazi's through his tireless efforts.
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#5 Kaiser

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 03:27 AM

Were the japanese atrocities worse or better than the german atrocities?, strange question, There were 6 million killed in the halocaust in the west, estimates vary from 100,000 to 300,000 in China, so the extent of the German atrocites were greater. I certainly wouldn't like to say one was better or worse than the other. If I had lost my mother or father in either, I could probably give you an answer


Really? Most of what I've read puts the number at around 5 million.
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#6 nolanbuc

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 10:14 AM

While both the Japanese and Germans commited unimaginable atrocities towards civilians, the Japanese will always have the worse reputation militarily in my mind due to their conduct on the battlefield and their treatment of Allied prisoners.

I will stand corrected if I am in error, but the Germans, on balance, fought as honorable of a war on the battlefield as could be fought in those circumstances. They also, while not winning any humanitarian awards, treated Allied POW's much better than did the Japanese, which the POW camp survival rates bear out.

The Japanese soldiers, the expendable issen gorin, often learned to cry out like a wounded American Marine so that they could target Navy Corpsmen. And the Japanese government to this day has never admitted fault in the Japanese Army's record of torture, deprivation, murder and even canabalism against Allied POW's.

I know that someone will rake me with the Wehrmacht's record of attrocities on the Eastern Front, but that was not the common soldier's doing in many cases and it was also much of a tit-for-tat situation with the Russians matching them horror for horror.
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#7 harribobs

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Kaiser@Mar 29 2005, 04:27 AM

Were the japanese atrocities worse or better than the german atrocities?, strange question, There were 6 million killed in the halocaust in the west, estimates vary from 100,000 to 300,000 in China, so the extent of the German atrocites were greater. I certainly wouldn't like to say one was better or worse than the other. If I had lost my mother or father in either, I could probably give you an answer

Really? Most of what I've read puts the number at around 5 million.

Quoted post

I am using the figures quoted in the late Miss Chang's book 'the Rape of Nanking'
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#8 Friedrich H

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 08:16 PM

Now, I ask you, were the Japanese war crimes worse then Germany's, or better?


Is a life more valuable than other? No. In sheer numbers, the Japanese killed maybe 5 or 10 million Chinese from 1932-1945, we'll never get to know.

However, as Kiwi stated in his very good 600th post, Japanese attrocities were a consequence of war, not its main aim. The Japanese did not build industrialised killing centres to weep the Chinese, Filippino or Malayan race from the face of the Earth. There's a difference in esence.

However, the escale of the terror bombings of Shang-Hai or Nang-Jing, the concentration camps, the use of bactereological weapons, the mass rape of women, the enslavement, starvation and work-to-death enforcement upon POWs and innocent civilians, brutal anti-partisan warfare, etcetera, etcetera, make Japan a nation that would bring nothing but death, evil and destruction at that time. Then Japan was a fascist, imperialist, belicist and racist nation no better than its German counterpart, and it carefully earned the treatment received during the war by the Allies, which was in many cases, far better than the one Japan gave to its enemies.
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#9 Friedrich H

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 10:22 PM

I will stand corrected if I am in error, but the Germans, on balance, fought as honorable of a war on the battlefield as could be fought in those circumstances. They also, while not winning any humanitarian awards, treated Allied POW's much better than did the Japanese, which the POW camp survival rates bear out.


I do not think that the Germans fought, on balance, honourable at all. None of the three branches of the German armed forces went clean as to what war crimes is concerned. All arms were heavily politicised and all participated, in different scales, in the Nazi Régime's policy.

The German Army actively and widely participated in carrying out the Comissar Order and the Final Solution, both in the Western, Eastern and Mediterranean fronts.

What about the brutal anti-partisan warfare? The gigantic and bloody anti-partisan campaigns in the Soviet Union and the Balcans, where over 15 regular German divisions had to fight Tito's Army and where 1,5 million people was killed? What about Malmédy, Oradour or Caën?

I know that someone will rake me with the Wehrmacht's record of attrocities on the Eastern Front, but that was not the common soldier's doing in many cases and it was also much of a tit-for-tat situation with the Russians matching them horror for horror.


Excuse me, but it was indeed the common soldier's doing. The war in the east was started by the Germans, and they were the ones who decided how the game was going to be played, from day 1. It was the common soldier's doing to kill the Untermenschen: the communists, Jews, partisans… it was the common soldier's doing to deprive entire populations of their means of life, starving or workinking them to death, or throwing them out from their homes in the middle of winter… And they never did it with a gun pointing at them or by fear to the Gestapo.
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"Only the dead will know the end of the war" Plato
"Tempus edax rerum" (Time devours all) Ovidious
"Vivire militare est" (To live is to fight) Seneca
"Tout est perdu forst l'honneur!" (Everything is lost, but the honour!) François I of France.

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#10 Kaiser

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 12:19 AM

I am using the figures quoted in the late Miss Chang's book 'the Rape of Nanking'


I think thats only for figures on Nanking itself. The entire war throughout China was probably 5 million-10 million.

I probably worded the question wrong.

Heres a better phrasing: Which Country's War Crimes Caused the Greatest Negitive Impact on the World?
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#11 sappernz

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:04 AM

I say Kaiser I find it some what repugnant to compare war crimes. An atrocity is an atrocity no matter who commits it. All had negative impacts on the world as there can be no positive impact from War Crimes.
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#12 Friedrich H

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 03:49 AM

I don't think that's entirely right, sappernz. Attrocities, as everything, must be put in context.

For example, some consider the Allies' strategic bombing a war crime. However, it was part of the price to destroy Nazi Germany and all it stood for. Right?

Now, what's the difference between the Germans jailing their Jewish citizens in concentration camps and the Americans jailing their Japanese citizens in concentration camps as well? Both are racist acts and reprobable. But if one consider that Germany was a totalitarian police State and the US was a liberal democracy, then there's a difference. However, there's also a very big difference as to how were these persons treated inside those camps.

A final example could be the cold-blooded execution of unarmed German guards at Dachau by American G. I.s from the 42nd infantry division. Some 60 or so guards were shot, in contravention of the Geneva convention. But one cannot ignore the fact that those same guards, just a few hours before, were torturing and assassinating prissoners by the dozens, and that it was those G. I.s who put an halt to that.

It's easy, but not accurate, to label all war crimes as the same.
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#13 sappernz

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 05:15 AM

Freidrich H , The one point to remember is who started the war and the way they waged that war.
The Germans and Japanese had practiced the bombing of civilian targets for years. They were responsible for the deaths of millions and were supported by their peoples at home.
The ones who claim the Allied bombings were a war crime were the ones who supported their own airforces doing the same thing, except that they lost, then it becomes a crime in their eyes.
They could have surrended at any time.
The Germans had a system of concentration camps set up for the express purpose of killing off anyone who did not fit the lunatic aryan mould.
The Americans set up internment camps after they were attacked by Japan to hold Japanese in the USA who may have been a threat and with hindsight we know now most were not but there certainly were many who were.
Not a war crime but a correct policy of security and I have never seen photos of gas ovens or mass firing squads at any of these places.
So 60 murderous , vile , cowardly, sadistic guards were shot at Dachau after they had kiilled hundreds of thousands of people in the most repulsive way. Big deal.
That is not a war crime it is instant and proper justice.
By the way I have read several articles on this and other killings of concentration camp guards as well as having talked to a British soldier who was in a group to first liberate one of the camps. The articles mention that in many camps the guards appeared unarmed then produced weapons and attempted to flee. They were shot. The soldier told me that most guards had put on the striped camp clothing and pretended to be prisoners but the fact they were well nourished fat bastards gave them away and as they were caught most tried to shoot at the British with weapons they had concealed and were shot.
When the Allies met fire with more fire to win a war they did not start the cowardly Germans and Japs started moaning about how they were treated. If they had won we would not be allowed this forum to talk about it.
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#14 nolanbuc

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 06:25 AM

Well, I was right about one thing, I did get raked. :blink:
I apologize if my post ruffled feathers, that was not the intent. However, I think may post may have been misconstrued somewhat. Poor wording on my part may be to blame. I was not talking about treatment of civilians whatsoever, I was discussing only battlefield attrocities and POW abuse, as I tried to distinguish in my first paragraph. Therefore, any attrocities towards civilians was not in the scope of my statement.

Originally posted by Friedrich H+Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM-->

(Friedrich H @ Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
I do not think that the Germans fought, on balance, honourable at all. None of the three branches of the German armed forces went clean as to what war crimes is concerned. All arms were heavily politicised and all participated, in different scales, in the Nazi Régime's policy.

The German Army actively and widely participated in carrying out the Comissar Order and the Final Solution, both in the Western, Eastern and Mediterranean fronts.

Quoted post

[/b]

That the German armed forces were politicized during the Second World War and helped to carry out the Nazis policies cannot be argued. The "Commissar Order" was a policy to liquidate Bolshevik officials (particularly the commisars) and other "dangerous groups". Now if you consider the commisars to be men under arms, then I suppose in that case I'm dead wrong. However, the other groups, such as Jews, were civilians and therefore not included in the point I was trying to make. Also, regarding the "Final Solution", it was a strategy for eliminating the Jewish population of Europe, who were civilians, and again, not included in my point.

Originally posted by Friedrich H@Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM
What about the brutal anti-partisan warfare? The gigantic and bloody anti-partisan campaigns in the Soviet Union and the Balcans, where over 15 regular German divisions had to fight Tito's Army and where 1,5 million people was killed? What about Malmédy, Oradour or Caën?

Quoted post

According to the rules of war, partisans or irregulars who do not wear the uniform of their country are not entitled to the priviledges of a prisoner of war when captured. If you were refering to partisans in uniform, I stand corrected.

<!--QuoteBegin-Friedrich H
@Mar 29 2005, 05:22 PM
Excuse me, but it was indeed the common soldier's doing. The war in the east was started by the Germans, and they were the ones who decided how the game was going to be played, from day 1. It was the common soldier's doing to kill the Untermenschen: the communists, Jews, partisans… it was the common soldier's doing to deprive entire populations of their means of life, starving or workinking them to death, or throwing them out from their homes in the middle of winter… And they never did it with a gun pointing at them or by fear to the Gestapo.

Quoted post

Germany certainly started the fight with the USSR, but most will agree that this is mainly because Hitler beat Stalin to the punch. I will concede the remaining points, but with all due respect you are not on topic with my statement, which, again, was regarding only battlefield and POW issues, and did not touch civilian attrocites whatsoever. Perhaps it was foolhardy of me to even attempt to address these matters separately.

However, taking all of your learned points into account, can you refute the main thrust of my statment, which was that the Japanese were far worse that the Germans (themselves not squeaky clean by any means) with respect to attrocities against Allied troops and POWs? If you can, I will bow to your superior knowledge. After all, I am here to learn. :)
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#15 Friedrich H

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 05:46 PM

Freidrich H , The one point to remember is who started the war and the way they waged that war.
The Germans and Japanese had practiced the bombing of civilian targets for years. They were responsible for the deaths of millions and were supported by their peoples at home.
The ones who claim the Allied bombings were a war crime were the ones who supported their own airforces doing the same thing, except that they lost, then it becomes a crime in their eyes.
They could have surrended at any time.
The Germans had a system of concentration camps set up for the express purpose of killing off anyone who did not fit the lunatic aryan mould.
The Americans set up internment camps after they were attacked by Japan to hold Japanese in the USA who may have been a threat and with hindsight we know now most were not but there certainly were many who were.
Not a war crime but a correct policy of security and I have never seen photos of gas ovens or mass firing squads at any of these places.
So 60 murderous , vile , cowardly, sadistic guards were shot at Dachau after they had kiilled hundreds of thousands of people in the most repulsive way. Big deal.
That is not a war crime it is instant and proper justice.
By the way I have read several articles on this and other killings of concentration camp guards as well as having talked to a British soldier who was in a group to first liberate one of the camps. The articles mention that in many camps the guards appeared unarmed then produced weapons and attempted to flee. They were shot. The soldier told me that most guards had put on the striped camp clothing and pretended to be prisoners but the fact they were well nourished fat bastards gave them away and as they were caught most tried to shoot at the British with weapons they had concealed and were shot.
When the Allies met fire with more fire to win a war they did not start the cowardly Germans and Japs started moaning about how they were treated. If they had won we would not be allowed this forum to talk about it.


Great post, Sappernz! And I am 100% in agreement with you. ;)

Thanks for the answer, Nolanbuc. I know get your point. Thanks for clarifying.

However, taking all of your learned points into account, can you refute the main thrust of my statment, which was that the Japanese were far worse that the Germans (themselves not squeaky clean by any means) with respect to attrocities against Allied troops and POWs?


Then I'd say, yes. But then I would like to clarify two things from my part:

1) Japan never sign the Geneva nor The Hague conventions. According to international law, Japan was not obligued to respect the laws it didn't sign. If you add the racism and Bushido code of the time… that's a deadly equation!

2) Germans comitted relatively few attrocities against the Western Allied soldiers and POWs, not the Allies in general, since the USSR was a member of the United Nations as well, right?

Then we could say that POW camps for British and Americans were quite 'comfortable' and the treatment they received was very generous in comparisson to the treatment received by Soviet or Polish POWs, or the same aspects under Japanese captivity.

Now, the German Army fought against the Western Allies from 1943 onwards in an eastern-front-way, which was the type of fighting most were used to, specially the WSS. You cannot deny that fanatic members of the 12th SS Panzer divisions didn't take a single Canadian prisoner, or that a British soldier with a commando knife was immediately executed by his German captors, real commando or not, that the LSSAH killed unarmed British prisoners in 1940 and Americans in 1944, that 2nd SS Panzer division fought 'easternly', as well as many Army units.

In the eastern front there simply was no distinction between men (and women) in uniform and civilians. Whether a Communist Party comissar was a civilian or a military comissar it didn't matter, he (or she) was shot. The partisan war (as that of the Balcans, in which Tito's men and women did wear uniforms or at least distinctive clothing) in the east was a full scale campaign which involved numerous regular battlefront units, which involved civilians, partisans and Red Army auxiliars. In some cases, Red Army paratroopers, communication or engineering officers were dropped into rear zones to help or co-ordinate partisan activity (pretty much like the American OSS and the British SS).

Or what about battles like the siege of Lieningrad, in which workers were given rifles and thrown into combat as frontline soldiers?

Maybe as many as 3 million Soviet soldiers (POWs in uniform) perished in German captivity, for mistreatment, starvation, being worked to death or plain assassination (the just-built gas chambers at Auschwitz and the Zyklon B gas were tested on Soviet POWs).

Though German POWs in Soviet captivity did have a very hard time and thousands died, there's no doubt that they got a light treatment in comparisson to what they had dispensed to the Slav 'sub-humans'.
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#16 Friedrich H

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 05:53 PM

Another thing, which I forgot:

Germany certainly started the fight with the USSR, but most will agree that this is mainly because Hitler beat Stalin to the punch.


This is a false assumption. To date, there's no actual proof of that. There certainly were many plans in the minds of military leaders like marshals Timoshienko and Zhúkov, who in 1940 had developed a plan for a pre-emptive attack on Germany in summer 1942 or 1943. But Stalin refused to consider any plan hostile to Germany. No document to date has suggested that Stalin had any intentions of attacking Hitler.

Saying the contrary is thinking about Stalin's own thoughts…
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#17 nolanbuc

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 10:57 PM

Thank you for your reply, Friedrich H. Your posts are quite informative & thought-provoking. :)
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#18 Friedrich H

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 11:35 PM

Thanks a lot for the comments, Nolan.

I always try to make them serious and informative, but some times I'm rather poisonous (sarcasm is so often a way of life… and it has become mine). ;)
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"Tempus edax rerum" (Time devours all) Ovidious
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#19 sappernz

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 03:21 AM

Thanks Friedrich H for agreeing with me 100%, my wife only gave me 90%.
While the Japs may not have signed the Geneva convention I belive that is irrelevant as " International law " is such a subjective matter that it is impossible to quantify.
From memory the lawyers for the Jap defendants argued international law subjects as a defence yet the Japs claimed immunity from international law when they were winning.
I think that there is to much discussion from a 21st Century Politically Correct bulls*** perspective rather than the facts of that moment in time.
Always enjoy your writings mate, they are very good and very thought provoking which is what this forum is about. Keep it up.
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#20 laufer

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 09:37 AM

Originally posted by Friedrich H
1) Japan never sign the Geneva nor The Hague conventions. According to international law, Japan was not obligued to respect the laws it didn't sign. If you add the racism and Bushido code of the time… that's a deadly equation!


Neither did Soviets by the way.


In the eastern front there simply was no distinction between men (and women) in uniform and civilians. Whether a Communist Party comissar was a civilian or a military comissar it didn't matter, he (or she) was shot. The partisan war (as that of the Balcans, in which Tito's men and women did wear uniforms or at least distinctive clothing) in the east was a full scale campaign which involved numerous regular battlefront units, which involved civilians, partisans and Red Army auxiliars. In some cases, Red Army paratroopers, communication or engineering officers were dropped into rear zones to help or co-ordinate partisan activity (pretty much like the American OSS and the British SS).



I agree. Talking about the brutal anti-partisan warfare we should especially keep in mind civilian casualties. We should also remember that German cruelty often provoked angry and brutal response of the guerillas. Soviet partisans operating far from its homelands often treated all around them as enemies.

Maybe as many as 3 million Soviet soldiers (POWs in uniform) perished in German captivity, for mistreatment, starvation, being worked to death or plain assassination (the just-built gas chambers at Auschwitz and the Zyklon B gas were tested on Soviet POWs).


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#21 Stich

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 12:29 PM

Though German POWs in Soviet captivity did have a very hard time and thousands died, there's no doubt that they got a light treatment in comparisson to what they had dispensed to the Slav 'sub-humans'.



"light treatment"? Really? Ask the remaining survivors of the German 6th Army if they think they were dispensed 'light treatment' in the Russian camps. I think roughly 100,000 were captured and only about 5000 made it back to Germany, some not getting back until the early to mid 1950's. Obviously the Russians wanted to kill off most of the Germans years after hostilities were over. I wouldn't consider that kind of treatment 'light' in any sense of the word.

I'm a noobie to the forum, first time here! Great site, and it's a pleasure to be here with all of you!
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<div class=\'quotetop\'>[quote]</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died.  Rather we should thank God such men lived.</div>-General George S. Patton Jr.-

#22 Gerard

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Stich@Apr 1 2005, 12:29 PM

Though German POWs in Soviet captivity did have a very hard time and thousands died, there's no doubt that they got a light treatment in comparisson to what they had dispensed to the Slav 'sub-humans'.

"light treatment"? Really? Ask the remaining survivors of the German 6th Army if they think they were dispensed 'light treatment' in the Russian camps. I think roughly 100,000 were captured and only about 5000 made it back to Germany, some not getting back until the early to mid 1950's. Obviously the Russians wanted to kill off most of the Germans years after hostilities were over. I wouldn't consider that kind of treatment 'light' in any sense of the word.

I'm a noobie to the forum, first time here! Great site, and it's a pleasure to be here with all of you!

Quoted post

Hiya Stich and pleased to make your acquaintance!! Now as to your post :)

I think we can agree that there were terrible atrocities on both sides during the war. But the Russians never started out with the intention of the extermination of an entire race due to their supposed "inferiority". Sure enough they took their revenge and some. They destroyed the Prussian State as an entity and looted, raped and pillaged. Although the German prisoners were treated terribly (Read Hans Von Lucks memoirs, Panzer Commander for an insight into it) there is no comparison in terms of how the Germans treated the Russian Prisoners of War. Only about 5000 of 6th Army made it back to Germany. I'm not sure that as many Russians lived to see their homeland after being captured by the Germans. The German 6th Army got what it desereved at Stalingrad; Ask any Pole or Russian about life under German Occupation. I know that two wrongs dont make a right but really what did the Wehrmacht expect? They treated Russian Prisoners harshly yet they were appalled when they werent treated according to international law. I'm not defending the Russians here, god knows they have enough to answer for themselves. But to try and claim that the Germans deserved better treatment is really a non-starter. The Eastern Front was a meat grinder for both sides and Stalingrad truly was the graveyard of the Wehrmacht.
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"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."
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#23 Kieron Hill

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 10:03 PM

Hi all,

This following picture is from my
Granddads papers. Its of an Allied
flyer just about to be executed,
God rest his sole and may the
executioner rest in hell.

I put this picture on my website and
decided to take it off in the end, due
to the the image evoking such a response
from Australian and New Zealand veterans
who found the image too upsetting.
11 emails in total! This goes to show
that feelings amoung some of the veterans
of these times against their old enemies
is as strong as ever and we should
respect that.


This is part of the caption attached to the
picture.
============================
Within in a split second of the camera
recording the scene, he was dead. He
died alone, with his arms tied down to his sides
with rope. He died when a Jap officer in lust
and hatred swung a samurai sword and
severed his neck at a stroke.
He was entitled to the protection granted
to men taken in war-a man whose simple
rights are respected by all civilsed peoples.
In spite of this they led him out, blindfolded
him and butchered him-with a circle
of grinning yellow monkeys looking on.
This is the enemy we now fight. An enemy
without pity-with the bug of madness
in his blood.
Look long on this picture-and DO NOT FORGET."

This picture is an enlargement made from a
snap shot found in the wallet of a dead Jap.
It was creased and bore signs of having been
much handled.
==============================
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#24 sappernz

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 04:50 AM

And the Nips talk about peace memorials and the germans were never Nazis.
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#25 morse1001

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 02:52 PM

Originally posted by kieron hill@Apr 2 2005, 10:03 PM
Hi all,

This following picture is from my
Granddads papers. Its of an Allied
flyer just about to be executed,
God rest his sole and may the
executioner rest in hell.

I put this picture on my website and
decided to take it off in the end, due
to the the image evoking such a response
from Australian and New Zealand veterans
who found the image too upsetting.
11 emails in total! This goes to show
that feelings amoung some of the veterans
of these times against their old enemies
is as strong as ever and we should
respect that.


This is part of the caption attached to the
picture.
============================
Within in a split second of the camera
recording the scene, he was dead. He
died alone, with his arms tied down to his sides
with rope. He died when a Jap officer in lust
and hatred swung a samurai sword and
severed his neck at a stroke.
He was entitled to the protection granted
to men taken in war-a man whose simple
rights are respected by all civilsed peoples.
In spite of this they led him out, blindfolded
him and butchered him-with a circle
of grinning yellow monkeys looking on.
This is the enemy we now fight. An enemy
without pity-with the bug of madness
in his blood.
Look long on this picture-and DO NOT FORGET."

This picture is an enlargement made from a
snap shot found in the wallet of a dead Jap.
It was creased and bore signs of having been
much handled.
==============================

Quoted post

The picture was published in the book, Knights of Budshido by Lord Russell of liverpool. from memory it was of a Aussie F/lt. I do not have a copy to hand but I seem to remember that it included information about the actual execution.

The irony is that the officer who carried out the execution no doubt considered it to be an honour to do so.

let us not forget the photos of the japanese army using civilians as live targets on their rifle ranges.

there is aslo the activities of Unit 731.
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#26 sappernz

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:04 AM

Morse I am glad you mentioned Unit 731. My wife bought me the book when it first came out in New Zealand in about 1989/90. It was not commented on much here and what little there was consisted of an almost, very bad but a long time ago attitude.
A Kiwi who was a Jap POW tried to show the public what went on and even got some Jap on TV who denied it all and just talked about planting blossom trees in peace parks he could create in NZ.
Unit 731 should always be mentioned in the same breath as SS, Concentration Camps, Mengle and other such abominations.
Could you and others offer an opinion on why Jap war crimes take a distant second to those of the Germans.
Unit 731 should be required reading for every person with an interest in military history.
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#27 Blackblue

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Kaiser@Mar 27 2005, 03:05 PM
During the war, Germany's war crimes are shown throughout the world. Yet Japan's war crimes are mainly kept secret. In fact, before the book, The Rape of Nanking, Westerners didn't know much about the Japanese war crimes. Now, I ask you, were the Japanese war crimes worse then Germany's, or better?

One thing to note is that Japan, till today, makes no note of their own war crimes, and still maintains the belief that they were the victims of WWII (nuke). Their text book teaches how they liberated Asia from Western colonialism, which, IMHO is true to an extent.  One reason why so many Asian countries refuse to allow Japan UN Security Council is because of their war crimes and their refusal to admit them.

Quoted post

The atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese, like those perpetrated by the Germans should never be forgotten. What occurred should be acknowledged in all Japanese schools. If you can explain to me how you 'liberate' people by murdering half the populace and putting the rest into forced labour I would very much appreciate it. 'Liberation' was never the intention.

The photograph of the execution posted by Keiron was originally thought to be of an allied flier. It is in fact not. It is actually a photograph of NX143314 Sergeant Leonard George Siffleet of M Special Unit, Australian Imperial Force. Executed as a POW 24 October 1943. May he Rest in Peace. Lest We Forget.

http://www.awm.gov.a...ple/1078334.asp

Summary: Aitape, New Guinea. 24 October 1943. A photograph found on the body of a dead Japanese soldier showing NX143314 Sergeant (Sgt) Leonard G. Siffleet of "M" Special Unit, wearing a blindfold and with his arms tied, about to be beheaded with a sword by Yasuno Chikao. The execution was ordered by Vice Admiral Kamada, the commander of the Japanese Naval Forces at Aitape. Sgt Siffleet was captured with Private (Pte) Pattiwahl and Pte Raharin, Ambonese members of the Netherlands East Indies Forces, whilst engaged in reconnaissance behind the Japanese lines. Yasuno Chikao died before the end of the war.
Rgds


Tim
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In memory of the service of my relatives:

75429 LAC Eric R E Berthelsen, 8 & 40 Squadrons, RAAF.
QX11125 PTE Donald A Smart, 2/25th Battalion, AIF.
123786 CPL George Smart, 6 Postal Unit, RAAF. .
94064 SGT Melba P Berthelsen, 3 & 7 Stores Depots, WAAAF.
100498 CPL Mona O Berthelsen, 3 & 7 Stores Depots, WAAAF.
QX30327 PTE Cavell B Berthelsen, 101 Convalescent Depot, AMF.
QX27130 PTE Norman F Zeller, 62nd Battalion & 2/15th Battalion, AIF.
Q69316 WO1 Harold J Tesch, 1 Australian Ships Staff, AIF. Formerly RSM 41st Battalion 1st AIF.
Q226443 LT George A Clyne, 8th Battalion, VDC.
Q213224 PTE Neil C Smart, 13th Battalion, VDC.

#28 nolanbuc

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 10:11 AM

Excellent points here that cut to the heart of the matter. Every country has had to come to grips with it's past sins of one sort or another. But the Japanese refuse in large measure to acknowledge wrongdoing in their warcrimes. The recent anti-Japanese protests in China are a direct result of that.
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#29 Kiwiwriter

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 02:23 PM

Blackblue, thank you for posting the identity of the two men in that photograph. I always wondered who that poor guy getting the chop was. I thought he was an aviator, too. Obviously, he was a commando on Ambon. I guess the Japanese decided to consider him a spy, which he was not. I have to find out where Sgt. Silfleet is buried. I am glad to hear that his killer is also a World War II casualty, and not alive to earn a pension.
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#30 Blackblue

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 03:27 AM

Hi David,
I think he was actually captured near Salamaua not on Ambon. He is recorded on the Lae Memorial. Obviously his body was not recovered after the war.

Rgds

Tim

Name: SIFFLEET, LEONARD GEORGE
Initials: L G
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: Australian Infantry
Unit Text: A.I.F. 'M' Special Unit
Age: 27
Date of Death: 24/10/1943
Service No: NX143314
Additional information: Son of Leo Vincent and Alma Elizabeth Siffleet, of Gunnedah, New South Wales.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2.
Cemetery: LAE MEMORIAL
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In memory of the service of my relatives:

75429 LAC Eric R E Berthelsen, 8 & 40 Squadrons, RAAF.
QX11125 PTE Donald A Smart, 2/25th Battalion, AIF.
123786 CPL George Smart, 6 Postal Unit, RAAF. .
94064 SGT Melba P Berthelsen, 3 & 7 Stores Depots, WAAAF.
100498 CPL Mona O Berthelsen, 3 & 7 Stores Depots, WAAAF.
QX30327 PTE Cavell B Berthelsen, 101 Convalescent Depot, AMF.
QX27130 PTE Norman F Zeller, 62nd Battalion & 2/15th Battalion, AIF.
Q69316 WO1 Harold J Tesch, 1 Australian Ships Staff, AIF. Formerly RSM 41st Battalion 1st AIF.
Q226443 LT George A Clyne, 8th Battalion, VDC.
Q213224 PTE Neil C Smart, 13th Battalion, VDC.




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